To find this poster in a train station wrong?

[megadude]

Hi Mumsnetters,

I'd be interested to read your opinions about this poster. I don't want to say right now what I think about it, as I'd like to know how you'd interpret it.

TIA,
Megadude

Well it is specifically aimed at women

However it's not saying don't go out don't drink don't wear revealing clothes ( I say this because a lot of posters have mentioned these things ) to me it's sayin stick with your mates

And as I said up thread as a victim myself when drunk going home alone I A. Can't help but think it's a positive thing to remind women that regardless of the fact their shouldn't be any risk in doing so there is

And B I take no offence from this poster and don't see it as victim blaming and believe me anger and frustration boils up inside me when I see that been argued ( rapist footballers for example)

I just don't think this poster is doing that just my opinion of course

I have no issues with telling people to be extra careful when they have been drinking.

I have an issue when that it only aimed at women.

I tell my sons to be careful, two of them are out now playing football and about to walk home. I texted them to make sure they were walking home with a bunch of friends and offered them a lift if they didn't feel safe. I also tell them about the dangers of drinking too much even thought they don't drink yet and I will tell my daughters the same.

I don't know if that poster is about rape or just general safety. If it's about general safety then it needs to include pictures of men, it's just sexist to assume women need a reminder and men don't.

If it's about rape then I understand that women are raped more often than men are and if I go out I am aware of the potential dangers of walking home alone and feel safer walking with a group of people. I rightly or wrongly feel like if I'm drunk and walking alone I'm more at risk of being raped because I might be seen as an easier target than I would be if I was out with a group of people. That said, I'm a bit sick of all the reminders being aimed at women to keep themselves safe and change their behaviour. I kind of worry that these type of posters just reinforce the idea that women share responsibility of being raped if they aren't 'careful enough' and going by some of the posts here, that line of thinking is obviously still well and truly alive.

so why are ONLY WOMEN on the poster if it's not specifically aimed at women

Using a mixed group would look way MORE like victim blaming, IMO - whether one woman and two men or two men and one women. The implication being that the bloke(s) in the picture might take advantage if the woman/women were drunk.

I find it fascinating that so many posters are so determined to not see a problem either with the poster or with the fact that women carry no responsibility for being raped. Or that men are the ones who need to do something to stop rape and sexual assault- not women. Is it because there is a deeply ingrained unconscious feeling that men are not really in control of their "urges" so women have to take responsibility for them?

so why not all men? Men are much more at risk of male violence on nights out - statistically

Well yes iv said already there should be another poster with men on it's not like they couldn't be assaulted , mugged , injured while drunk but I guess it depends on the campaign that has led to the poster been made

I think it's just a reminder to carry a moon cup and supply of panty liners cos they don't want ladies leaking on trains.

Bert

I don't think that at all and I'm not having to try to not see a problem with the poster I just don't .

I don't place any responsibility in myself for what happened to me I should be able to walk were I want when I want however what I should be able to do is irrelevant to the fact there is a possible risk in doing so

You could have all the posters in the world saying don't rape people . Rapists know rape is illegal yet they choose to do it anyway

So you look how you can help protect yourself , and all those on here saying women shouldn't have to . Yes I agree . But I bet you still do. So why is a poster reminding us to do so wrong ?

I think you are right Bertrand. To me it smacks of 'othering' the women who are raped. They must have done something, on some level, to invite that rape. If they'd stated with their pals it wouldn't have happened. If they hadn't had those last two shots it wouldn't have happened. If they weren't dressed like a 'sexy cheerleader' it wouldn't have happened.

I've walked home, drunk as a skunk at 3 am and not been raped. Because that night I didn't meet a rapist. I've walked my dog in a country park in jeans at lunchtime and was raped. Because I met a rapist.

*stayed not stated

Bertrand I completely agree with you about the fact that women carry no responsibility for being raped.

But when discussing this specific poster, which is what the thread is about, I have very limited information, and I believe that reminding people (all people, not just women) to take care when making their way home from a night out is a perfectly valid message. There is no hint of telling women to avoid rape or sexual assault on it, but it has women on it and people are extrapolating. It's true there are only women on this particular poster. For all I know there is one with only men on it on the other side of the station. I know nothing about the campaign other than this single poster, and I don't believe that this poster alone is victim-blaming.

Taking care when you're going home after drinking is always a good idea. Any number of things could happen, none of which necessarily involve other people. Train stations already have posters everywhere advising people not to run for the train and fall down the stairs, to stand back from the tracks etc. Therefore I don't think it's unreasonable advise people to take care of each other. Women or men.

I feel like people are arguing about the message behind this poster when really they know what it means. It doesn't show a woman sat on a train looking down at her phone and not keeping an eye on her bag. It doesn't show a group of pals getting on a train and drunkenly pushing and shoving in the doors. It shows three dressed up women walking in a street. It's really disingenuous to suggest that it's not saying, women, don't get raped.

But single examples don't prove anything. Yes, you have to meet a rapist. Yes, that can happen at any time, and when you're wearing any clothes. Yes, there are more rapes that happen when the victim knows the attacker than when the rapist is a stranger. It doesn't mean that it isn't still sensible to take some precautions that might reduce your risk. Doing so doesn't make it your fault if a rapist decides to rape. Doing so doesn't make it right that he does.

I think it's patronising to imply that those people who don't have a problem with the poster are just not enlightened enough to see it yet. It doesn't mean that they are determined not to see it, or that it's too subtle a view, or that they aren't tuned into that sort of thinking. It means that they might have considered both viewpoints, and still decided that they think it's OK. There are many other examples of victim blaming that I do have a problem with.

I think for me, the consequences of being raped are worse than if I were attacked in other ways, and thus even those other crimes might be more common, and even though the risk of violence might be greater for men overall, I feel more vulnerable. I don't think I can eliminate the risk and I don't want to take such measures as locking myself up all the time; I do, however, do some small things like trying to walk in lighted areas or where there are other people. I don't think it's my responsibility or my fault if it happens. I wish I didn't need to do any of it.

It also doesn't mean that railway companies and stations shouldn't also be putting measures in place like more staff and guards and so on; it doesn't need to be either/or.

Well I agree that to me that is the message but not in a victim blaming way

How many women on here will say to their daughters / friends / sisters or say to their daughters in the future when they go out thing like :
Don't walk home alone
Save money for a taxi
Call me if you can't get a taxi
Stick with your friends etc etc etc

What's that then ?? Is that victim blaming is that basically sayin these are the rules to stick to or else you know what will happen and it will all be your fault

No of course not . To me that poster is just that conversation

yes but if I get drunk and fall down stairs because I am drunk - my fault

If I am drunk and get pushed down stairs - not my fault - I was assaulted

I don't think many women, drunk or otherwise, accidental fall on penis's and have accidental sex

rape is not an accident and being sober isn't an antidote to it nor is being 'careful' whatever that means

How do you know what it means, though? Some might interpret it that way; when the question was first asked at the start of the thread, an awful lot of people thought it was a poster about train safety. It isn't disingenuous to say that is what our first impressions were, and how we would take it. My first thoughts were that it was a continuation of those posters in the tube, with people falling on escalators or slipping onto the track or whatever when drunk. Honestly. Yes, I can see that it might imply more than that if you want to take it that way, and it's an interesting discussion, but my first, genuine, response to the poster was not anything at all to do with rape. I don't think I even registered that it was all women, particularly - it was just a group of friends out for the evening, presumably getting drunk and thus not behaving as rationally or carefully as they might otherwise.

The reason I do think it's about rape /assault is because of the fact they already do have the posters about people been injured on the escalators and this is done in a different style and also because it's all women

I'm going to assume that you mean its me who is being patronising.

I'm certainly not. I hoped I wouldn't come over that way and if I did then I'm genuinely sorry.

But, (isn't there always a but?!) You have specifically mentioned 'taking precautions' in your post. Precautions against what? I can assure you that were you off your tits drunk and half naked in my town then my dad, my partner, my two brothers in law and my two close friends wouldn't rape you. They aren't rapists. They aren't so inflamed by the sight of a drunk woman that they feel the need to rape her. A rapist would. If you had taken the precautions that you think might save you then maybe it wouldn't be you that night. The rapist would still be a rapist and he'd still rape. Your behaviour just affected your outcome. It didn't stop him from being a rapist.

They aren't so inflamed by the sight of a drunk woman that they feel the need to rape her. A rapist would. If you had taken the precautions that you think might save you then maybe it wouldn't be you that night. The rapist would still be a rapist and he'd still rape. Your behaviour just affected your outcome. It didn't stop him from being a rapist

Of course not, and I don't think anyone said differently. I wish I could affect the outcome for everyone so no one ever gets raped, but all I can do is try to lower my risks as much as possible. I know I can't take away all the risk, or even lower it substantially but I feel like I am probably less likely to get raped if I walk home with a group of friends in well lit areas than if I was to walk home in the dark alone.

I don't think she means you . Another poster put something along the lines of the amount of people on here trying not to see the victim blaming in the poster

Which is patronising . You can't tell people how to think !! I find that personally hard to take because I'm a victim myself ( a still angry one at that) so really don't need other people telling me what to think about something!!

I don't think the poster is about rape! Quite surprised people saw it that way. I presume it's about getting pissed and potentially falling over onto train tracks. I don't mind it being aimed at women if there are also such posters aimed at men or if women are at greater risk of injury from accidents when drunk in stations (plausible due to high heels).

I think its saying girls stick together, to protect each other from sexual assault, rape, etc. A predator does after all go for an individual, rather than group, if they can. I think its sensible advice that people need to be aware of. I don't see it as victim blaming, although I can see why others would.

I really like that one somebody linked to "drinking is not a crime, rape is".

Ok. Has anyone ever seen a poster with a group of men dressed up for a night out telling them to be careful and to look after each other? No. Neither have I. But maybe I've just missed them because they were on the other side of the station..........

groups of predators go after groups of 'victims'

U2 I don't disagree with anything you say in your post. My point is that YOU behaving a certain way won't change the outcome for the woman that does meet the rapist that night and posters and campaigns that put the onus on women to not be the one who gets raped are detracting from the fact that nothing women do deters a rapist.