To find this poster in a train station wrong?

[megadude]

Hi Mumsnetters,

I'd be interested to read your opinions about this poster. I don't want to say right now what I think about it, as I'd like to know how you'd interpret it.

TIA,
Megadude

Gandalf I remember that ad. Thought it conveyed a balance message. They have been done!

And there a drunk pedestrian poster to balance out a PP's argument. If you look they have been done. I personally think they are a waste of money. A poster is not going to put common sense into me, my mum done that!

the woman walking home alone is more at risk and always was

So what about other groups who are statistically "more at risk"? Should there be posters for them too?

Well, if it's not about rape, why is it only women? When men are more likely to be mugged, attacked, have accidents..........

I wonder if the campaigns are based on statistics (what is reported and by whom) and that's why they target certain demographics?

I've not seen ads for men on a night out. Have for domestic violence though. This is why I'm curious as to how data is gathered in order to do a campaign.

I'm sorry that happened to you make and glad that you made it through the minefield that is getting a conviction.

At first it said to me don't you and your female friends get so wrecked you can't walk or talk and have to get picked up by the police. Cointreau is terrible I'm never drinking it again, or lambrini.

But reading the comments i totally understand where people are coming from, it's not the first place my mind goes to but I do see it. its a shame it can't say "don't rape anyone tonight guys"

No but the drink driving poster analogy kind of proves the opposite of what you are trying to. you can educate potential drink drivers eg: do you realise you may still be over the limit the next morning or do you realise how many units are in that one drink etc etc but people who know this and dot give a fuck will still drink drive

For the rapist who wants to attack a drunk women walking home , he is beyond educating just like the drink driver who knows it's illegal and does it anyway so what good would posters do in that context

I say in that context because that's what were assuming this poster refers to , not walking home alone etc to avoid been attacked .

I'm not convinced that rapists are beyond educating, and if so, at what point? Is there a stage in their life when something can change?

I believe we should be educating young men generally around consent , this whole lad culture treating women as objects is vile and I'm sure many young men would consider having sex with a drunk incoherent young women not to be rape . But it is . I think this way of thinking is bred by the objectification of women , the availability of porn , websites that promote this lad culture the list goes on but I don't consider that to be the same ( don't get me wrong it's no better in my eyes just different) to a rapist who attacks a woman on the street when the opportunity is there .

If your asking can they change will they reoffend , what makes them do it the first time ? I honesty don't know

OP - in answer to your question about can rapists change or be educated?. I'm possibly a rare example of a rape victim who went on to work with rapists in forensic MH (but am I rare? statistics tell us 1 in 4 or 5 women are victims of rape I think? and many women work in MH care in secure forensic units and prisons so there must be more women than me that work in that field that have been victims?).

I ended up working with sex offenders as a result of some bizarre career moves. It wasn't an area I aimed to work in but oddly, I think I was probably more open to try to understand that kind of aberration of behaviour than my colleagues who couldn't bear thinking it may happen to them or their children. A lot of people think they'd rather be dead than experience rape or think they'd kill someone that did that to their child or someone they love. HCPs aren't immune to that and I've known HCPS that make an interaction with them involving a sex offender so uncomfortable that the offender would disengage and the HCP could legitimately discharge them.

I've lived rape and the aftermath so even though I don't tell my colleagues about it, I know how it is to live with the consequences. I live it every day and I think it's one of those scenarios where people guessing how it is to live with it is often different to the reality. Like all the parents who genuinely believe that they could not carry on if their child died. They think they'd die or kill themselves because they couldn't deal with the pain. But many bereaved parents on this site say you'd go on, you'd carry on in pain. You don't know what you can bear or live with till it's been forced into your life.

My view was we can't understand these people and reduce the risk if we do what our instincts say and reject them. That increases their feelings of not being listened to or understood and rejected by society and it drives them to be secretive and go further underground.

But we're talking about a very small minority of rapists here. Rapists in forensic MH care are generally the small minority of stranger rapists or rapists in a 'relationship' who have exhibited extreme violence or hostage - taking for example.

Potentially these offenders can be educated and possibly change. They have access to prison offender programmes and psychological therapy. I'm not saying they will change but there is a chance.

Buy They're not the most common partner/date/friend rapist. And in my view, that's who should be targeted but how could we?. They're our family members, friends and colleagues. The blokes we don't consider as rapists.

The people that society convicts as a rapist has access to resources that can educate and change. The majority of rapists aren't considered as such and so they don't consider themselves as rapists so can't be educated or change.

the woman walking home alone is more at risk and always was

So what about other groups who are statistically "more at risk"? Should there be posters for them too?

Statistically the group most likely be at risk of attack on a night out are men between 15-25. Where is their warning poster?

There are intervention schemes for people convicted of domestic violence and sexual assaults. It's very hard to gather any reliable data, but the better schemes (lasting 6 months to a year), where people complete them (and some people are court ordered to do this, it's part of their probation) can change the behavior of those people.

However that is really expensive to fund, and tends not to get a lot of govt funding.

But the govt decided to campaign against drink driving. True, it didn't change the opinions of people who are really intent on drink driving, but it did achieve a change in general attitude. My parents grew up with everyone having a few beers, or 3 or 4 glasses of wine over a meal, then driving home. Now they wouldn't think about it. It's not really impossible to think that a sustained, meaningful campaign would get rid of 'lad culture' and the attitude that it's OK to encourage/seduce/coerce someone if you think they might be willing. It won't affect those who are truly intent on committing a crime, but the casual, 'well I thought she was up for it' attacks could be got rid of.

It's virtually impossible to get a rape conviction under the 'innocent until proven guilty', 'beyond reasonable doubt' legal model.

And this model - that works completely and utterly in favour of rapists, in a way that it simply doesn't for any other type of criminal - isn't going anywhere.

And for point of clarification - the poster in the OP isn't internationally victim-blaming, per se. Rather, it's one of a zillion and one things that feeds into a culture whereby victims of rape are blamed for their own predicament.

No but the drink driving poster analogy kind of proves the opposite of what you are trying to. you can educate potential drink drivers eg: do you realise you may still be over the limit the next morning or do you realise how many units are in that one drink etc etc but people who know this and dot give a fuck will still drink drive

You're making the mistake of looking at the situation as it is now - not how it used to be before we (society) made an effort to change.

Of course there are persistent law-defiers - there always will be, when it comes to any matter.

Now - it's just the hardcore outliers who defy the law.

Before, it used to be everyday, usual, normal Jo/e Bloggs types who'd drink and drive.

I'm not in the UK/Ireland, but I know the situation there is similar to where I am (the ILs live in rural Ireland).

Go to any vaguely remote place that's a cars drive from anywhere, and count how many pubs and restaurants are still operating.

Not many.

And that's because all those places relied on people - regular, law-abiding people - drinking at their establishments, and then driving home.

Now it's not OK to do that. To the extent that countless business have closed up.The only people who still do it are a small minority of arseholes.

I cannot understand why some people have SUCH an issue with even just trying a similar approach with this. Why not just try?! A concerted campaign telling people not to do it. Not to rape (and what constitutes rape/consent). What harm can it possibly do? What's the worst thing that could happen?

What's the best thing?

Thanks to everyone who has been so eloquent on this thread about what is wrong with the poster

I think to carry the drink driving analogy through - yes, there are always going to be the hardcore people who drink and drive anyway. Perhaps they are the equivalent of the 'stranger rapists' (apologies for the term, can't think of a better one) described so eloquently by maketheworld upthread.

Maybe they can't be reached.

But the 'blurred line' rapists (again, apols for terminology) are the ones who can be reached by cultural change. I know a young man whose friend was making serious moves on a young woman who was too drunk to give consent. Friend's son stepped in. Sleazy boy accused him of 'cock blocking', everyone else in their crowd did a sharp intake of breath and told him he was not cool, they went and got the girl's friend and then the lads all left the bar together, removing sleazy boy from the situation. That's the equivalent of taking the keys off a drunk person, that's cultural change in action, that was a save.

(Now of course there's the underlying problem of sleazy guy feeling entitled to sex from a drunk woman, I'm not saying the problem is solved, but it was a start.)

Where's the poster promoting active intervention when your mate is being an entitled dick?

I know a young man whose friend was making serious moves on a young woman who was too drunk to give consent. Friend's son stepped in. Sleazy boy accused him of 'cock blocking'

This is what we want to see - that its widely socially unacceptable. Sleasy guy doesn't seem himself as a potential/rapist he thinks hes a player/lad/pua or some such and will keep displaying this behavior unless it gets checked.

Wow I thought this post had fizzled out, then I check this morning and see all these amazing posts. Even though it's a depressing topic, the discussion has been mostly amazing, and very thought provoking at times.

It was moving to read posts from people who've had first had experience of rape too. I genuinely believe that the changing of attitudes is they key to reducing rape, and something seriously needs to change in the courts to change those outrageous stats on how few defendants are found guilty.

I'm in two minds over what to do next. I have tweeted Greater Anglia and received no response. Now I'm wondering if I should contact them directly with a letter/email, or direct them to read this thread.

I would certainly draw their attention to this thread megadude.

As TheDowagerCuntess says above, posters like this do feed into the pervasive rape culture which has to be stamped out.

Itsmine- I would welcome your comments on my post of 18.01 on Tuesday, please.