To find this poster in a train station wrong?

[megadude]

Hi Mumsnetters,

I'd be interested to read your opinions about this poster. I don't want to say right now what I think about it, as I'd like to know how you'd interpret it.

TIA,
Megadude

It's different lumpy. There was advice I think, telling people to take the keys off people they thought were going to drive home. Which is kind of like telling women to stick together.

Sexual violence is primarily an issue that affects women and is perpetrated by men. No one can argue that. So it makes sense that advice on personal safety is targeted towards the more likely victims - women and girls.

See, I couldn't disagree more with that statement. I think the message should be unequivocally 'stop doing this. We will catch you. We will put you in prison. You don't have the right to put your penis in another person's body unless you have full, enthusiastic, sober consent. Anything else is rape'

And I don't (clearly) think that message should be targeted towards victims.

I dislike the messages of the SLT - and I have met Diana on several occasions

but people CHOOSE to drive drunk - women (and men) don't CHOOSE to be raped

That's pretty much my reading of it too, Jeanne.

I supose it is a good mirror of how society as a whole sees 'women having a good time and men who like then a bit too much' - the Lad and Ladette culture clash.

There must be a common sense middle ground, I used to think I stood in it, but threads like this highlight, over and over again, how much and how little has changed with our still patriarchal society.

I do now feel I am a bit blase, maybe I don't always see misogney where it exists. But I also think it must be a far more frightening world for some hwo see victim blaming and a rape culture all around them.

But I think it is more saddening when women, on a site that supports women, has threads where the same self hatred is voiced. We really should be able to disagree, on this topic as no other, without resorting to trite name calling and unpleasantness.

However, I am realistic enough to know that holdng my breath on this issue would be bad for my health

... and I wish I had proof read that before posting... sorry

It's different lumpy. There was advice I think, telling people to take the keys off people they thought were going to drive home. Which is kind of like telling women to stick together.

Nope, that would be like telling men to stop their mates being assholes. Pick them up on their behaviour, don't passively listen to misogynistic twaddle. That would be the equivalent of taking the keys of the driver eg preventing the perpetrator.

I think the message should be unequivocally 'stop doing this. We will catch you. We will put you in prison. You don't have the right to put your penis in another person's body unless you have full, enthusiastic, sober consent. Anything else is rape'

Absolutely, Lonny.

As for people feeling intimidated/belittled and that the debate is shutting down etc, well, as pps have said, that's pretty much how it feels as a feminist trying to put your point across too.

And Bertrand is right to highlight that there are posters posting the responses to comments without posting the comments that elicited them; which often throw a rather different light on said responses.

Don't most men tell their mates if they are acting like dicks? If not, then yes, they should be doing that too. Taking the keys does prevent the perpetrator, that's true, but it is also a step towards preventing disaster and helping to keep people safe.

What I see most in this thread is the likely make-up and bias of juries.

God help us. And rape victims.

I didn't explain that very well. I mean that the sort of arsehole who would drink drive is still out there, but the opportunity to cause harm has been taken away by someone confiscating the car keys. Agree that the main thing which stops bad behaviour is proper sanctions.

Lonny - you can't disagree that women are the more likely victims though.

And I think your idea is brilliant. I would love it if we lived in a society where men and (sadly many women) have a full understanding of what consent means and what constitutes a violation of someone else's body. And that the victim has not done anything at all to invite, permit or excuse that violence. And I wish we had a criminal justice system where reported rape and sexual assault cases had a more than 10% chance of resulting in a conviction with a substantial custodial sentence.

But we don't. And we're nowhere near that. And it's shit and unjust. But while we're still nowhere near that, we should advise women to try and take action to reduce their risk of being a victim of a horrible crime. And I hate it too. We should be able to do whatever we want at any time without risking someone perpetrating violence on us.

I was a victim who actually saw justice - my rapist was handed a substantial custodial sentence. Because of significant physical evidence, my young age and injuries and he was a stranger attacker which is far easier to prove in court than the more common rape victim who is raped by a partner or on a date or by a friend.

I was a victim that society and a jury viewed as a victim. Many rape victims are not viewed as I was. And that's hideous. Although my experience was awful and so damaging I think myself 'lucky' that I was viewed as a victim by the Police, medical professionals and the Court. Many victims don't have that experience.

But I was raped at night in a secluded area where I wouldn't have been if I wasn't drunk and had stropped off from my mates because I was a young teen in a drunken mood. It's been over 20 years since but as far as I'm concerned, I had the misfortune to encounter a dangerous offender but I wouldn't have encountered him if I'd been in a safer place.

It wasn't my fault but I wouldn't have met a rapist if I hadn't been there and was safe at my mates house. So I admit that colours my view.

NN - and that's partly because there was massive govt intervention to be ruthless about drink driving. A huge campaign, along with tougher laws and stricter sentencing, aimed at the person breaking the law - the drink driver.

These posters are NOT aimed at the criminals who rape, but at the victims.

As someone earlier said - we don't tell pedestrians to stay home or carry safety equipment with them, to protect themselves against drink drivers. We tell criminals who are about to drink and drive no to do it.

Why don't we tell criminals who rape not to do it?

Please note: This is on the same rail network that has a RECENT sex assault on it. The victim of that attack is likely to see a poster telling her to 'be careful'. What, in case she slips and lands on a penis by mistake?

IT IS NOT UP TO WOMEN TO BE CAREFUL. IT IS UP TO MEN NOT TO RAPE.

For those that disagree with the poster, what will you do to try and help make change?

The message is not
clear and executed poorly, men can be vulnerable too. What are we as a society going to do about it?

I know how to look after myself, if I became the victim of some sick individual would that be my fault? No! Would seeing a consent campaign poster stop them? Doubt it. We can have debates about who is right and wrong but really, what are we doing to drive change? The only person that can educate my children is me. End of.

There are numerous campaigns that are directed at one sex. The knife crime in London for example, however there are known female gang leaders. There is always a flip side. It's not down to the government to tell our children, it's us. They should save their money with these campaigns. I don't think they work. The money should be put back into community centres in my opinion.

That's awful make sorry for your experience. I'm glad the attacker got a heavy sentence, it's disgusting what some get away with.

Then the govt can stop putting out victim blaming posters, and put money into security cameras, training police, educating me, rehabilitation of offenders, educating juries, lawyers, and judges.

that would be a great idea. And parents can bring children up with the clear message that we don't touch each others' bodies unless we're very sure that it's Ok. We teach kids not to slap/pinch etc. So just keep extending that message as they grow older, don't get into fights, don't lean over someone, don't try putting your hand up their back, don't grope etc UNLESS you know it is OK.

But instead we have posters making out that women need to put in the work to keep themselves safe when they shouldn't even have to think about it. Why can't we just see that as the end-goal? We want a society where it is safe for anyone to walk home alone after a night out. Why aren't we just shooting for that? Because the only way to achieve it is by clamping down on people who make public spaces unsafe. The victim cannot change the behavior of the criminal. But larger society structures can, so that's where the time, effort and money should go.

So it makes sense that advice on personal safety is targeted towards the more likely victims - women and girls.

The poster doesn't actually give any advice though. Lots of people on this thread have said it's telling women to "stay safe" but there's no specific or meaningful advice on the poster. Women will either already know how to "stay safe", or if they don't, they won't learn it from the poster.

In any case I'm not sure "stay safe" is the right phrase to give to a woman. It's not as if she chooses to be either "safe" or "unsafe". There are no guarantees that any particular behaviour ensures someone will "stay safe".

"But instead we have posters making out that women need to put in the work to keep themselves safe"

I couldn't have put that better myself. All of your post in fact.

What a pointless, harmful poster. Might as well say "Remember, rape culture is watching you here! We will judge you and determine who 'really' deserves our sympathy". There aren't even any instructions about what " staying safe" is meant to look like. Longer skirts? Less drinking? Etc etc

So many eloquent posters. I'm nodding away.

This is the best analogy of the trouble with the poster i've seen:

LumpySpacedPrincess - so drink drive posters should be telling pedestrians to get out of the road, yes?

Exactly. Nothing wrong with a poster about drink driving. But it SHOULD be aimed at the drinker - not aimed at telling people to ''be careful to keep out of the way''.

It's a subtle difference but it's so important.

Itsmine- could you respond to my post of 18.01 please, if you're on here?

How about a series of posters like this. Drink driving, protect yourself by crossing the road very carefully indeed? Firework safety- be sure and wear a fireproof suit in case someone throws a firework at you. Dog fouling - watch your step..........

I personally don't see it as victim blaming. Badly executed? Yes. There are loads of other bad campaign posters teaching all of us how to suck a lemon. Do any of us really need a poster to learn common sense/curtesy? I don't think so.

This thread has made me think it's about time I wrote to my local MP about the wasted money on such campaigns and how the money can be better spent.

Actually I'll email, I'm not organised enough to have stamps!

There was an advert a couple of years ago from the other side: www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/is-rape-advert-aimed-at-teens-the-most-752183 (Sorry it's from The Mirror )

The poster does not mention or allude to rape. Or being attacked. It just says "stay safe"

It doesn't tell women not to go home alone or advise them on how to dress. It doesn't mention being attacked, robbed, falling, losing stuff, stumbling off platforms or down escalators, getting lost, (asleep until end of the line stories are common), being pickpocketed or scammed.

It just means "keep your wits about you"

It has turned into a polarised debate about rape in which there are good guys and bad guys and everything is black and white. There are no "sides".