To find this poster in a train station wrong?

[megadude]

Hi Mumsnetters,

I'd be interested to read your opinions about this poster. I don't want to say right now what I think about it, as I'd like to know how you'd interpret it.

TIA,
Megadude

Agreed Lonny I often go out and come home on my own - meeting friends in between or even - shockingly going places ON MY OWN

"'not noticing what might have led up to the remarks you object to.'

Ah yes. They started it?"

Yep. Sometimes they do. Are you saying they don't?

The Suzy Lamplugh Trust gives out advice about personal safety very similar to this.

My interpretation is that your risk of being attacked physically or sexually by a stranger is thankfully low. Most women are raped by men they know and often; trust and even love.

But for the small number of opportunistic stranger assaults, you are safer if with other people, in familiar well - lit or populated areas so you're not lost or disoriented and if your judgement or reactions are not impaired by drugs or alcohol.

The responsibility for physical or sexual violence always lies with the perpetrator. It is never the victims fault. But there are some general personal safety measures that you can take to potentially reduce the risk. It won't eliminate the risk but it can help reduce it.

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

While I understand the point op made about this poster (and those that followed), I can't help think what I'd advise my daughter when she goes out alone. I would prefer it if she did keep with the group she went out with. I would feel she'd be more vulnerable on her own, though not necessarily safe just because she's with 2 others. It's all relative, isn't it? When I was younger, I was happier if I were walking with a friend. Happier still, if I'd just called a cab. But even that is not a guarantee, is it? Some taxis are not taxis...

I do get the view that attackers should just stop attacking and that, if you do get attacked, it is always the attacker's fault. However, I don't think that just because this is true that any of us should not keep our wits about us. I remember being desperately naive when I was younger and I shudder at some of the risks I took (walking home at 2am). I certainly wouldn't take them now and would not want my daughter to do the same.

Just checked back for the first insult. Because I am fed up of it always being the feminists who are to blame. Here it is.

"Victim blaming is wrong, but the deluded, manic standing-on-our-rights version of feminism (or any other ism) that tries to silence personal safety messages (of ANY kind, targetted at ANY audience) is positively dangerous, TBF"

There was a sexual assault on a Greater Anglia Train fairly recently
I assume that's the reason behind the poster...the victim woke up to someone on top of her, pulling into Southend Victoria. As an occasionally drunken frequenter of this train line it scared the shit out of me.

Another things , it's not like this poster is the only poster in the public domain ever . One poster telling women to stick together. Job done . Problem solved ! No

There are other posters addressing consent no means no etc etc targeting men . So in the bigger picture this poster is just addressing one aspect.

"here are other posters addressing consent no means no etc etc targeting men . So in the bigger picture this poster is just addressing one aspect."

Are there? I haven't seen any.............

I'd like to join this but feel that the debate had been shut down. Don't want to be called stupid, have my points dismissed with trite comments about "Bingo". Don't want to be belittled or have my words twisted or for other PPs to assume I believe a whole load of guff because it suits their argument.

The discussion is worth having. No-one on here is really stupid/ a rape apologist/ a rapist/ a victim-blamer etc. It suits other posters to attack individuals rather than discuss the issues.

I have direct experience of travelling for many years late at night on tubes. I still do. I have been attacked - not on the tube - followed and assaulted. I have a teenage DD. And a teenage DS.

I would like to contribute without it being personal.

Sorry if someone else has already made this point (haven't read whole thread) but I find that it doesn't come across as just good advice, or at least not advice that's needed. I find in general it's the girls who do tend to stick together and take care of each other and the lads who often end up disorientated and alone after a night out drinking.

Imo this poster is saying 'if you're not careful you'll get raped, and it's YOUR behaviour which can affect this'.

I hate it.

So - within the same network there has been a recent sexual assault of a woman by a man, there are no posters aimed at men on this topic, and yet this poster isn't about victim blaming?

I'm sure that the woman who woke up with a man on top of her feels really great that if only she'd been sensible and stayed with a group (what happens if her friends don't live in the same house as her? At some point one of them will be alone) then that man wouldn't have done that. And now there's a poster to remind her how she shouldn't have been alone, in public.

Women have as much right as other people (the penis-wearing ones) to be out in public. Doesn't matter what they wear, how much they drink, if they're alone or in a group. They have the right to be out in public. Reminding them to 'be careful' is not OK. It is also not the same as parents telling their kids to be careful. A public poster telling women to stick together is telling them not to go out and have fun.

There are plenty of rape apologists and victim blamers on MN. Many many women internalise misogyny and go to great lengths to run down and blame other women so to say that nobody on this thread is victim blaming is a bit of a stretch.

Bang on lovestonap. That's exactly what it says to me.

Google Dorset police no means no poster a campaign ran a few Christmas ago. Including one stating no matter what your relationship no means no ( along those lines) showing a bride and groom . Plus other examples

Also ones put up in universities surrounding consent

Which there absolutley should be ! I'm nt trying to deliberately argue iv said up thread I could literally bang my head off a wall with the attitudes of some men towards women that they view as harmless and just the way thing are etc

I just don't see this particular poster as wrong.

Wasn't there a campaign recently about consent. I forget the exact details but it was something along the lines of if you offer someone a cup of tea and they say yes please, then make them tea. If you offer tea and they say yes please but then fall asleep while you are making it, you don't pour it it down their throat anyway.

Bluejug don't let it stop you - I have carried on despite people being labled 'offended feminists' and the old PC Gorn mad line being thrown around :)

Who has victim blamed or been a rape apologist? No one on this thread has said a woman is to blame for not sticking with her friends.

Otoh, it's been implied that anyone who doesn't see the poster as causing harm is stupid and not a proper feminist.

It's far easier to victim blame than tackle why we have people who feel entitled to use their power to sexually assault people.

We don't have sentences that reflect the crime , because we as a society don't demand them, if every single adult in this country told their MP that it was critical how we deal with these people we would all be a lot safer.

I have yet to see a political party even mention on it's manifesto how they will improve how we deal with sexual assault, let alone do anything about it.

At the moment we see tougher sentencing for small theft than serious assault, which tells you how much value we place on people being permanently damaged by assault .

Get every adult you know to write to their MP, and it may have a chance of changing.

Sexual violence is primarily an issue that affects women and is perpetrated by men. No one can argue that.

So it makes sense that advice on personal safety is targeted towards the more likely victims - women and girls. That's not saying that men shouldn't be responsible as the perpetrators. They always are. It's not saying it's your fault as a woman if something happens to you. It's saying you are more likely to be a victim because of your sex so here are some ways to possibly reduce that risk.

And it's fucking shit that women are more at risk but that's the reality. And that's why this is targeted towards women and girls.

I agree with op's opinion on trial by jury. Our society is so misogynistic that it is impossible for women to receive a fair trial, no wonder only 15% of assaults are reported.

Do you know what would prevent rape, a decent conviction rate. Then more victims would report as they know they would be taken seriously, even if they were walking home alone.

Great post Quoteunquote. Is it possible both sides can draw a line under the name calling, and who said what, as there are some really interesting things being said. Mean that in the nicest possible way.

make, so drink drive posters should be telling pedestrians to get out of the road, yes? Not telling people not to drink and drive but telling potential victims not to cross the road?

but why do women need to be TOLD - do people think women don't grow up with this knowledge?

It's not targeted at girls - it's aimed at adults

What are we supposed to do - never go out alone or accept a risk if we do?

I am an adult I own a house and drive a car and everything - why do I need poster basically reminding me that despite that I am vulnerable and at risk and should stick to groups and watch my self and how I behave because - rape?

Bluejug- carry on. That's generally what feminists have to do.

Itsmine- can I ask why you are posting the responses- rather than the comments that ilicited them? For example my remark that something was an extraordinarily stupid statement was in reaponse to this -"It appears there are too any offended feminists who are prepared for a young woman to come to harm because they don't agree with the message the poster is giving." Which is stupid. And offensive.