To find this poster in a train station wrong?

[megadude]

Hi Mumsnetters,

I'd be interested to read your opinions about this poster. I don't want to say right now what I think about it, as I'd like to know how you'd interpret it.

TIA,
Megadude

Fuck knows why we need posters to educate and 'warn' us.

Can I tag somebody else in to respond to that ^^ I really need a restorative brew.

polly, women are not a greater target.

Most of the assaults that happen, happen to young men.

Yes, more women than men are raped - but a tiny proportion of rapes happen in this context, and rapes are only a subset of all assaults.

I do think we need campaigns on this, because clearly people are ignorant of the facts.

Polly several pps have addressed why the burglary analogy doesn't work. Our bodies are not possessions.

And I'd LOVE to know the 'physical and biological reasons' we are more vulnerable.

Because we're physically weaker? We wouldn't need to be if we weren't assaulted, some women are physically stronger than some men.

Biologically? Because we have vaginas? Because men have penises? Because men have 'uncontrollable urges'?

Limited period, I have to laugh. Calling someone a twat should be unacceptable but you didn't even notice. Also is that poster implying that men are rude on trains? Maybe to be fair there needs to be both a man and woman being the 'twats'. ;)

I can only go on the material provided polly. But yes, I wouldn't mind seeing posters calling women twats for the annoying things some women do on public transport. I'm all for equal opportunities.

I don't find it unacceptable to describe someone as a twat if that's how they present themselves.

Bacon I do 100% see your point. And wish that was the case. But for my own kids I will be urging them to take care. Both my son and my daughters. I agree that a bigger problem statistically is possibly (don't know the figures) male on male assaults and would like to see a poster regarding that.

Polly - please tell me where I can buy a dead lock for my vagina like I have on my front door?

Do you know what twat means?

polly, I linked to the stats upthread. It is hugely a bigger problem.

I think we have to accept that as women we are a greater target. That is not our fault but it is our responsibility. It's important that we understand that and protect ourselves accordingly. We can't control what other people do but you wouldn't leave your house unlocked anymore than you would (or should) wander down a dark alley alone, and this is especially the case as a woman.

Men are more likely to be the victims of other violent men, no poster for them then.

90% of victims know their victims...

Firstly, I don't believe you can always prevent yourself from being raped. But if you are on a night out, it can only be helpful to you if you are not so drunk that you don't know where you are and you don't wander off alone. There are predatory men out there. It does not follow that in doing something to reduce the rapists opportunities to get to you easily, that women who are drunk/alone are to blame if they are attacked. Just don't see that connection. I certainly wouldn't think she should have been with her friends and therefore it's her own fault

Secondly, there are men who snatch and assault women off the street. I don't know where the idea comes from that this has stopped.

I stand by the notion that rapists are different to normal men. I know a fair few men - I don't think they have anything in common with a rapist beyond being in possession of a penis!

I agree that women should be able to do what they like and no blame should ever be put on a woman for something a man has chosen to do. And yes, we should be making society into a place where this is the case but as things stand women are vulnerable to sexual attacks and I will be telling my dd to not drink too much, to buy and guard her own drinks and to stick with her mates. While working on changing society, it would be stupid to ignore how it actually is now.

I don't think that many men would happily socialise with men they think could be capable of sexual assault, so I am not sure how well a poster would work telling men to stop their mates from assaulting women.

Yes. I believe it means cunt in the north of England and so is disapproved of by some.

In the south, where the posters these parodies are based on exist, it is interchangeable with twit and used to describe a mildly annoying person.

Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrator prior to the offence.

^This.

Surely if we do need posters to make us aware of the real dangers, then those posters would be saying different things entirely.

Perhaps a Father Ted theme would make it catch on:

CAREFUL NOW - DON'T EVER GET INTO A RELATIONSHIP WITH A MAN.

MRS. DOYLE SAYS - DON'T EVER BE FRIENDS WITH A MAN.

DON'T WORK WITH ANY MEN. STEADY ON NOW.

DON'T MARRY ANY MEN. DOWN WITH THIS SORT OF THING.

I won't hold my breath.

85% of victims don't report their assault.

The rape conviction rate in the UK is 6%.

Posters like this just spread the myth that women bring it on themselves.

NN, I said 'largely'. It is no longer a commonplace belief that women should never venture out of the home unaccompanied, for fear of being abducted. It once was.

Societies change.

I think the difficulty I have with your argument is that you seem to believe that everyone understands exactly what rape is, and everyone recognises a rapist when s/he sees them.

I just don't think it is that simple.

Yes, I believe a small minority of men cold-bloodedly set out to rape women, even to target strangers on the street. But they are a tiny minority. Far more rapes are carried out by men who either genuinely believe what they're doing isn't rape, or who believe that the rest of the world will believe them if they claim that.

And this sort of poster really plays into their hands.

I've got an imperfect comparison, but it might be useful. I remember that before the very hard-hitting campaigns about drink driving in the past couple of decades, it was seen as much more socially acceptable. It wasn't that there was no drink-drive law. But you'd see people have 'just a couple' of pints and get behind the wheel. And we knew that cars killed people. But the huge stigma just wasn't there in the way it is now.

I really notice this with my dad. He means well, but he simply cannot understand that if he has two pints and drives, that is a terrible thing and he might kill someone. And so we have to be very careful to make sure he doesn't.

Most rapists are a bit like that, I think. In the absence of a campaign making it really clear that what they do is terrible, they will continue to do it, believing it's not really a big deal, and they're probably doing nothing much wrong.

Campaigns really can and do change the way people behave.

I think we have to accept that as women we are a greater target. That is not our fault but it is our responsibility.

Never. I will NEVER accept responsibility for men setting out to hurt women. Because it's not my responsibility.

And NN, if you know a fair few men, statistically you'll know a few rapists. They don't come with a badge just a handy warning poster

I was sexually assaulted at a party, surrounded by mates, staying over because it wasn't 'safe' to walk home. I did everything right, apart from be in the same room as the party host's older brother who was a sexual predator. You bet your arse I'm both a feminist and offended.

I don't believe it is always possible to recognise a rapist when you see one. Some abusive men are very charming in public and awful in private.

I am just uncomfortable with the notion that all men need telling not to be a rapist because I genuinely believe that most men are nice, decent people. Athough I must admit that view is at odds with the culture we seem to have wherby there are mass assaults on women throughout Europe and yet no mass arrests and where footballers who treat women appallingly are idolised because they can kick a ball about. As if that is more important.

The reason more men than women get attacked on a dark alley, is because more men walk home while a lot of women take a taxi home.

Oh, I believe most men are nice, decent people. It doesn't make me uncomfortable.

iMog - you don't say.

A former footballer is currently on trial for sexual offences. I say former because he admitted two of them and was immediately sacked by his club.

So there's a start. It's not just footballers who treat women appallingly and get a free pass for it btw.

Lots of other men do too because people believe they are nice and decent and refuse to believe otherwise.

Obviously NAMALT

This take a taxi advice that abounds always seems strange to me. There's very often a cabbie rapist story in the news.

Cab drivers account for 10% of stranger rapes in New York in 2015. link here

Don't know the statistics for this country.

His gf is still standing by him, a position I cannot get to grips with. And Ched Evans is still playing iirc. I know it isn't just footballers - I gave that example because as a group, they are men whose value is held as greater by society than that of the women they treat badly. So society chooses to turn a blind eye to outrageous behaviour because they generate a lot of money for their clubs.

Thanks to everyone who’s contributing, putting forward a lot of intelligent thoughts, and keeping this thread polite considering the topic and strong views. A lot of my opinions have been expressed better by others already, so I just thought I’d mention a couple of other thoughts I have on this subject.

I’ve never been raped, but I have been harassed on public transport from my mid teens to late twenties many many MANY times while I have been travelling alone. This has happened at any time of day including going to visit my Grandad in hospital after school, commuting to and from work, and traveling across the country to visit my BF, now DH.

I therefore argue that harassing lone female travellers is nowhere near enough of a social faux pas as it should be, and a well designed campaign can help to make people think twice. Think back to people’s attitude to drink driving in the seventies as an example. I think that focusing on telling people not to harass or attack people on public transport is a very good idea indeed.

I also have a big problem with the way this poster offers zero support to people. Our safety is NOT their priority, profits are. If safety was their priority, where are the security staff on the trains and stations at night? Why does the poster offer no support for people if something (debatable what the poster alludes to) does go wrong?

Remember also, this is Cambridge station, a place where people meet for a hub of activities from different destinations. If you have a night out with your friends, the chances are you will have to go your own separate ways at some point. Separate to the debate about whether we should have to modify our behaviour, we will always be vulnerable to attack at various times and situations in our everyday life. “Taking extra care” is merely playing a numbers game with chance and not making yourself immune. It may reduce your chance of attack, but who knows? You are not in control or responsible for the criminal acts of others.

Also, the number of attacks on women does not reduce in a country where women “take extra care”, take India for example. The problem lies in social attitudes towards women. If we challenge attitudes, and sway public opinion, then we might actually make a genuine difference. As monstrous as people who attack women are, they are human beings operating within our society construct.

Ten years ago, I was on a jury for a rape trial, where a fifteen year old girl and her mother were raped. The trial contained many references to misconceptions and stereotypes of rape, that played on Jurors preconceptions. Here are a few examples:

1. Why did you answer the door at night?
2. You are an alcoholic, aren’t you? (to the mother)
3. If you put up a fight, where are your bruises?
4. Once he had removed your clothes, could you not have run to the back door, and ran to the nearest public phone a few yards away?
5. Was there any sexual tension between you before the alleged attack? (that was asked to the defendant about the fifteen year old daughter by the prosecution!)

I learned from that case, that to get a conviction, you have to be Mother Theresa, raped by a stranger who magically appeared from nowhere, beat you black and blue before you could run naked to the nearest public phone box! I really hope a lot of things have changed in court over ten years, but I know a lot of preconceptions exist in society, therefore in jurors today. In my opinion, this poster is reinforcing preconceptions on a very subtle level, which I see as part of the problem, not the solution.

Yes I think you're right there Bertrand. I also think there's an element of othering, I said the same last night. These other women are slappers and risk takers and they flirted with him anyway so they asked for it. The 'good' women won't get raped because they follow the rules society has imposed on us.

Ended up banging head against wall discussing online with two women who were in agreement that 15yr olds know what they are doing and shes partially to blame as well.