Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

The OP is unwilling to compromise. She and her husband are the problem. They want a particular church experience and everyone else must suffer, indeed possibly be unable to follow the sermon, to accommodate that. It is only for the sermon that there needs to be a reasonable amount of quiet. That is the teaching bit. How can people follow the teaching if there is a load of noise in the background? Some of the congregation may not be Christians or they may be new Christians just getting to grips with the basics. They must be denied the opportunity to learn because the OP will not compromise.

Her children will not be getting anything out of the service, so it is only the OP and her husband who will benefit. And she apparently has too much on to consider getting involved in running a crèche. Other people should miss out on the service to mind her children but she should not take a turn. All I am seeing from the OP is a self-centred approach. There should be give and take, tolerance, yes. But the entire purpose of the church service is not to cater to the OP and her husband.

There is a room available for her to go to. I can't remember if it has the audiovisual facilities required to broadcast the service, but if not the parents can take it in turns to go there with the children, just during the sermon, until funds can be raised for AV equipment. But no can do apparently. Parents learn to tune out a lot of the children's noise. The noise is usually much worse for others. I am really aghast at her selfish attitude. There is no give, only take.

Stick a child with sN in another room?

Very inclusive.

Brain is perfectly engaged thanks.
It's not a buzzword it's an important concept.

It's all PC gorn mad these days.

Stick the kids with Sn in another room

The child may or may not have special needs, but as far as I can see Newballs was suggesting that any small child would be better off in a child friendly room during the sermon, and I agree. I am on the creche rota at church and the children enjoy their time there and can make a noise, run about and play safely in an age appropriate way.

48 hours later, and after so many people saying YABU, as you originally asked, have your views changed op? If you made a concerted effort to improve your reaction to the behaviour of your kids and take active steps to prevent them from disturbing others too much, that would probably do it?

Would going into another room apply to a noisy adult or older child?

There is a huge difference between a person with additional needs calling out from the congregation, singing off key or the wrong hymn, approaching the altar (as a pp had experienced in her church), and a poorly controlled child running riot. One cannot be helped and should be accommodated if possible and the other probably CAN be helped - if the op makes some effort and yet still her child disturbs, and is taken out of church until settled again, I think her congregation will welcome her back. It's the zero effort that seems to be irritating her vicar and congregation.

Reasonable adjustments are exactly that - reasonable in all the circumstances, including how certain behaviours impact on other people. For example, a child with SEN with a propensity to violence (when scared, feeling threatened etc) would not be allowed to hit other children without action being taken - that would not be a reasonable adjustment and efforts would be made to show that child appropriate boundaries and protect other people from that violence. Different scenario to here but I do think people are conflating reasonable adjustments with accepting absolutely all behaviours and that is neither law nor practice.

48 hours later, and after so many people saying YABU, as you originally asked, have your views changed op

It's really strange how people read threads so selectively. There have been plenty of people who understand OP's position and say SINBU, and it is noticeable that those who say otherwise regularly turn out to be people who haven't bothered to read her posts properly and/or who show a startling lack of christianity for people who claim to care about what goes on in churches.

Been on thread since the beginning and read the lot - just think and conclude differently from you, which is what this forum is all about Gruntled. Not done a count but I'd bet the people's vote balance swings in favour of op being unreasonable in these circumstances.

My child would not be able to sit still for long. He would make repetitive noises and bang and kick things. He may hit or bite himself because of reasons that have nothing to do with where he is. He wouldn't call out because he can't talk. Would he be expected to go into a room full of toddlers which he would find a nightmare?

I agree with you fanjo (I find I usually do :) ) we do need to be careful about inclusion. I think that if there is a creche available with a good rota (and as a parent I was always on our rota and ended up staffing the creche about once a month which was fine) then that's actually great because the dc enjoy playing and parents get a break to worship. However, if not, I don't believe sending them out to a cold room is the answer. The church op goes too have decided to provide child friendly space - that's great. Why shouldn't they use it?

The sermon is teaching, yes, but it's part of a whole that is about learning to be community, learning to welcome others into community and learning from one another. When I preach I'm so pleased about the little ones around, sometimes they cry, it's fine, it's part of doing life together in community. I don't want stony silence in church, I want it to be real, for everyone to be welcome.

When Jesus preached he didn't send all the children away - far from it. It would have been noisy and wild, yet folks learned from him about living kindly and lovingly.

The op may have to compromise in some way, we all do in order to support one another, but to sideline folks because they make a bit of noise - it's not where I see church being at.

I know there are quite a few snippy comments on this thread and people calling Christians hypocrites etc. It saddens me when I see this to be the case. Thankfully in my experience most want to be kind and generous, to include all, to help each other. There will always be exceptions - and we can all have bad days and moments. We are human.

Honkinghaddock - no, in my church of non religion, your child would be welcome in the thick of the congregation. My personal issue is parents not taking appropriate steps to educate their kids about acceptable behaviour, not about unavoidable disturbance.

I would fully accept that many, I hope most, Christians are not hypocrites. But it does appear that the ones complaining about a couple of small children in a side chapel may well be.

Agreed, GruntledOne

There are loads of kids at our church. It can and does get noisy, parents are expected to supervise their children and deal with any unwanted behaviour, which they seem to be able to manage successfully and everyone seems happy with the set up. Kids running around and chucking stuff about wouldn't be tolerated, which is nothing to do with 'not wanting children there', but with having a bit of thought and respect for other people in church; and parenting your children.

What's that bit of the bible about he who is without sin Gruntled? Most posters aren't demonstrating Christianity when posting in aibu...

I seem to remember quite some time ago the OP saying she was off, so she has probably hidden the thread.
However there is still plenty for those of us who are part of churches to think about.

Op came back on quite recently, she's watching still

The church we go to tries to accommodate both the children and older people by having half the service with the children, then half where the children go out to Sunday school at the back.

One hour is a very long time for children to be sitting. I would say 20-30 min is a good starting point, and many won't even manage that.

Churches are often very echoey buildings as well, so if they do run about or make noises, it feels amplified. This isn't anyone's fault, but explains why it's not quite the same as pottering about on a carpet in a regular room.

and parenting your children.

Have you parented a lot of 4 year old's with sN and tried to keep them quiet in church?

don't despair..some of us understand

Nobody can answer the reasonable/unreasonable part of the question. We weren't there. But what is clear is that this church is important to you. Try to focus on that.

I think that your husband could try talking with the vicar. If he's on the PCC, they must have some sort of relationship.

You have so many more options than just leaving.

Your DC's behaviour was clearly disruptive to other worshippers. I'm sure they didn't mention it in order to be difficult, the service was genuinely disrupted by it.

I would have been embarrassed. It's your responsibility to ensure your children are behaving considerately. If they get too loud, take them out until they calm down.