Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

I've been reflecting on this a lot and realise I was wrong for what I said about the church not missing out if OP leaves. Upon reflection and reading other's responses, it seems the vicar could have handled it differently. OP please don't leave your church, maybe the vicar was having a stressful day or having people moaning at him constantly, it can be hard when your congregation are having a go at you about something and sometimes you just snap and say something and it doesn't come out in the best way. Please try to take on board some of the comments, maybe arrange with your vicar to have a chat and see if you can't find some compromise or solution.

Many people have mentioned churches having a corner at the back for children, my church has that too. But actually, I don't think that's the best approach. When I used to go with my (now ex) DP and his DS we used to sit at the back in the toy corner and we'd stay there if there was no sunday school. But that seems like we're just shoving parents in the back and trying to forget about them. I like the suggestion of having a kids area at the front, that way the DC can actually be involved in the service. Tbf my vicar is really good with the children and young people and always tries to involve them, but reading here and reflecting on things I really dislike the idea of the kids corner being at the back. Out of sight out of mind springs to mind...

I agree about having the children at the front. Our previous minister liked them at the back and was even heard to say 'the children are dismissed to their classes' which made it feel very much as if they weren't welcome (I was leading children's work at the time so quite sensitive about the place of children in the Church). One of the first things our current minister did was to move their area to the front.

I apologise for not having the time to plough through all 25 pages of this thread. This may have been said before.

In most churches I have taken the children to, there is a compromise situation where the service starts with everyone together and splits into age appropriate sections for teaching. Parents in a separate small children's room are able to listen to the address via an audio link.

That seems reasonable to me. It always has done, both before having children and now that I'm familiar with the stressful experience of keeping children quiet and occupied during the service.

As a parent, I do think it's a lot easier to tune out crying and whinging. We're able to tell what's real pain/anxiety and tune out the rest as white noise. We're accustomed to picking out way through conversations with a barrage of interruptions and sound effects going on. For others who aren't currently in that world, a child crying is more of an event, and harder to switch off from.

I think the OP's vicar, like vicars everywhere, is in a very difficult situation here. He didn't handle it well but it was probably on the back of months of wondering fruitlessly what to do (hence the 'something has to be done' instead of 'we need to do x'.)

Church should be like a family and there are competing ages and priorities in any family. Babies can't have it their way all the time, and neither can older people. Everyone has to compromise and one would hope this could be done with sensitivity and love.

If the OP's child was causing a disturbance and she was unwilling to shield the congregation from the effects of that for any length of time, I would say that her expectations were possibly a bit on the high side. But there is no right answer to all of this really because families are messy. They're supposed to be; it's in these thorny little dramas that the real life of a church plays out, and there should be room to make mistakes and grow.

I still think it works both ways, yes the OP should be made welcome and families encouraged to join the church family, but does this mean at the expense of those who want to experience/enjoy their church visit without "lively" children disturbing the service so much the vicar was probably asked to have a word? The balance surely shouldn't be all in favour of the mum with kids purely to encourage them to keep coming, what about the other members of the church who also want to be there. There may be elderly/single/people who might see their Sunday church visit as the highlight of their week (I certainly saw that at a church I regularly attended).

Madhairday that's a great post. Spot on.

Not to mention that the elderly/single/child free people may well be doing the bulk of the financial support, as we all know that many young parents do not have a lot of spare cash to contribute. The people who actually are supporting the organization should have their preferences and needs respected; as someone said it is a two-way street.

Just as long as you know about the camel passing through the eye of the needle LeaLeander.

I always suspect some elderly/single/child free people in church of holding the views expressed on this thread. It gives me no pleasure to have my suspicions confirmed.

It is only just past Burns Day so I would highly recommend "To a Louse" or "the address to the unco guid" or even "holy willie's prayer".

I go to an evangelical church in a non traditional building. We have a Sunday school every week of the year so the Children thankfully don't need to sit through the whole service every week. It is nigh on impossible to get preschool children to sit for more than 20 minutes at a time no matter how many toys/ sticker books etc you take with you. Could you offer to organise a rota so the Sunday school can go on all year round? To be honest I'm very disappointed no one in the church has offered this already because the onus should be on them to reach out and help you.
If the church can't provide a room for the 1 year old that is sound proof then the congregation have to expect some noise and have to resist the urge to complain. If they don't like the noise of children then they can easily sit away from the children's area.
Try working with the vicar to explain how impossible it is to bring the children when there is no Sunday school and if they are unable/ unwilling to try and provide help then you may have to consider a more child friendly church.
Really hope you find a solution.

Thank you here .

lea are you really saying that the church should favour those giving the most financially? What a sad outlook. Jesus would have short thrift with that kind of attitude, because he was all about grace, forgiveness and mercy and he had a well known preference for the most impoverished in society, the ones the others looked down on. In his church, I would hope that all are upheld, all are listened to, all are supported, regardless of their financial status/how long they've been at the church. No one should take preference.

Children make noise, that's a fact but I don't think allowing your child to run around throwing stuff is fair on anyone.

We attend a monthly Family Service at our Church. The congregation knows that, if they go to this service, it will be shorter - usually about 45 minutes and will be noisier than the usual services on each of the other weeks.

The children will be called up frequently to join in - our DS and his friends (some as young as five) do the readings on a rota. The Vicar will do his sermon, usually with props, which the children gather round him for and help out with, a few hymns and some prayers. Although the children do walk about and do play, they are always running to join the Vicar at the front, love being picked to hold props or help out with the sermon and, crucially, you hardly hear a pin drop when it's time for prayers. As soon as the Vicar begins you see the children run back to their seats with their parents - no one has ever said they need to do that but each parent seems, like us, to have taught their children that prayers are a time to be still just for a couple of minutes and the children instinctively behave at that time. Hard to describe but very noticeable.

The Vicar says, in his welcome, that it is a family service and the children are welcome to wander about or play. Those who don't like that have three other services to attend at the same time on the other weeks and can also go to a later service on Family Service Sunday.

As the children are growing older though, we notice that they do sit for longer, more quietly and new children seem to pick that up very quickly - watching how the older ones behave seems much more effective than mum or dad shushing them all the time.

I've only seen one parent take a child out (though crying babies often get taken out more for the parent's sanity than because anyone has complained). That child was having a complete tantrum, everything dad did was wrong so he picked him up and took him out to calm down. Back within ten minutes and fine for the rest of the service.

I don't think lea is saying that at all mad. She is pointing out that we carry each other's burdens a bit - that older people are sometimes overlooked in a church context and shouldn't be, because of their 'years of service, their very real sacrifice and their devotion. If they have trouble sorting out the sermon from the white noise (and this is a skill that often goes with age), it's not fair to dismiss that.

I have often thought that there's a schism in churches between old and young, and the church tries hard to evangelise and recruit young families - which is great - but it can leave the older generation a little displaced. Jesus would not have done that either. That's not the say that the 'we've done it this way for sixty years and we'll continue' attitude is appropriate either.

I really do feel that it's in the details of being church family that we grow and learn. This is not a theoretical, 'who is right?' debate. It's a heart issue and bickering and moral indignation has no place in it. I speak to myself as well.

lea are you really saying that the church should favour those giving the most financially?

No, but I am saying that young families who are preening themselves for "being the future of the church" and telling themselves that "without us there would be no future congregation" and thus any and all obnoxious behavior should be tolerated - might want to spare some consideration for those whose gifts are providing for the PRESENT of the church and defer a bit to their comfort.

It's absurd to think that an infant or toddler is getting enough out of the experience to warrant disruptions to others' experience of the service, and if older kids also are unable to control themselves then they probably aren't absorbing much theology. Why ruin it for some people just because you don't want to get a babysitter or take turns with the co-parent in attending services?

LeaLeander PLEASE don't take that tone.

So I take it my profoundly disabled son wouldn't be welcome in your church then.

If the church can't provide a room for the 1 year old that is sound proof

The OP has said she wouldn't go if she had to sit in another room.

KnockMeSideways your Church sounds lovely

We moved church after having DD1...to a 'praise band' church! There are 2 services on a Sunday - one at 9am (traditional) and one at 11am (family). There is a crèche and Sunday school 3 Sunday's out of 4. The first Sunday of the month, the children stay in. Minister is fantastic and has carried on with the service with toddlers crawling around his feet at the altar. He has had 4 children of his own.

The congregants who dislike the noise of children attend the 9am service.

We have always felt welcome, every week. It's a joyful place.

As fastday pointed out (and as stated in the last para of the OP's first post) the OP wants to be in the Church itself and is not willing to go to another room which is the problem really. Either the OP or her DH do leave the service to accompany their eldest to Sunday School so I am mystified as to why they will not take the children outside for a few minutes when Sunday School is not on.

I suspect that members of the congregation may have complained to the Vicar/Priest previously, but there must have been something this week that caused the Vicar/Priest to raise it himself.

I find it strange that the OP won't go to another room for any of the service; it's standard practice to make a child-friendly room available for parents of young children during the 'quiet' part of the service, where they can listen to the sermon via an audio link. I don't understand why someone would feel personally aggrieved about it - that part of the service is for listening to, after all.

I think this might be more to do with the very difficult time the OP must be having in connection with her child's challenges, and perhaps the vicar clumsily said the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time.

Either way, it would be nice if church goers could demonstrate that they don't rip each other to shreds over disagreements but actually have some substance behind all the loving claims that the church makes about being humble and patient and generally kind...

my adult child is disabled and has Lds' (plus a wheelchair) never had any trouble going to church(they have even been to Lourdes) most churches are very welcoming to disabled people.
but this is not what the op was talking about. she is talking about small children, small children need to be taught how to behave, she needs to do that
(been there with my other child....you teach them)

I don't think it's quite that simple if your small child has special needs Samro.

I would love the vicar to see this thread. Plenty of food for thought in all directions.

Can you sit him in the pew with endless snacks and an iPad? As a fellow parent of4yo I get they don't 'get' it but you can't let them free roam however quiet, you also don't sound as though any of you are benefitting from being there- would you tag team it eg week in own week with kids etc
I know you've been there years but you surely therefore also remember your pre dc days where noisy kids were a distraction? And therefore you know it's not appropriate in the way which you describe