Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

Throwing a toy and running around would not have been ok at any family service I've been to. I don't understand what your children are gaining from being in Church if they're acting like it's a playgroup.

It sounds like Sunday School is going well so I'd keep going with that and then take it in turns to go on the other dates.

There might be churches that are different though. I've only regularly been to traditional CoE where children are in Sunday School, sat with their parents or colouring/reading quietly in the children's area.

Why don't you try just taking the children once a month as they don 't seem to be getting much out of it. You and your dh could take turns on the other weeks to go, whilst the other stays at home with DC, but still attend as a family monthly.

I have taken my DC to church regularly since birth but admittedly not weekly, I feel it is too much and there are a lack of family services. When we go I always take a bag of quiet toys, some colouring, books and quiet snacks and I would expect them to be able to sit reasonably well during the service - however I will admit I enjoy it less as I feel under pressure and actually struggle to really think about the readings/sermon.

The vicar has always made it clear that it is ok for the children to make noise - however there is s clear distinction between noise and running /throwing toys.

Now they are older it is much easier and I sometimes still go alone. I would take the pressure off yourselves.

The bit about school admissions was to explain there were few younger children but a lot more 8yrs plus due to secondary admissions - so this church isn't used to have many younger kids who are less likely to sit quietly.

I'd recommend finding another church who are more open and accepting of younger children who are 'perfectly well behaved'. I took my eldest a few years ago and was about to leave due to her noise but was reassured that it was fine, they expect it and it's not a problem. You need to find a church like this. I'd hate a church who were all about quite, solace, serious stuff - this is not what christianity is about and if churches only cater for the people who need quiet they will die out. Family services should be lively and happy with a touch of the serious at the right time and a good pastoral team for those in more need of quiet prayer and reflection.

YABU - you clearly have no thought for

a) other people who are trying to teach their dc that you play quietly / sit and do something quietly when you are in Church as other people are trying to listen. This is incredibly difficult and unfair if another child is seen to be allowed to be running around throwing and squealing.
b) all the people who are trying to hear what is being said
c) all the people who need a relatively calm atmosphere to get what they need from worship.

Solutions -
i) there are two of you there! Take turns to try to keep your dc relatively quiet, and when they aren't able to be, then take them out. Be firm, be consistent.
ii) start a creche rota. They would be better in the Sunday school room than in the Church for the whole service. Ask for volunteers / start a rota then you won't need to miss every week. Even is you were the only ones there, at least you and dh would get alternate weeks in the service, but I bet you'd get a lot of people who remember what it was like trying to keep little people quiet, who would be prepared to go on a rota.

I think the vicar, and the person who asked you in the first place are perfectly right to let you know that, because of you not being willing to control the noise and actions of your children, if meant that swathes of other people weren't able to worship in the Church that morning.

There's a huge difference between babies/toddlers crying for a bit and a 4 year old running around and throwing toys. You're in a church service not a soft play session. My DD is autistic and was never allowed to misbehave like that in church.

Sorry but YABU.

We come to church because WE want to worship, and because we want to introduce our DCs to the Christian life.

Doesn't sound like your children are old enough to be introduced to the Christian life! Maybe wait until they can actually LISTEN and make sense of what being in church means??? Until then, soft play will be much more fun for them!

Whatever happened to the bible verse Mathew 9:14 "Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

I think that some of the clergy and church goes, have forgotten this, some are total and utter hypocrites, I would seriously look for a more child friendly church.

What would Jesus do?

Sorry yabu. As others have said, what's the point of your DC being there if they're just going to treat it like a playground? Chances are if Sunday school is only be led 2/3 of the time it's because they're short on volunteers. Why don't you volunteer to join the rota? It always annoys me at my church when many of the parents complain we're struggling to run the youth group / Sunday school yet not one of them volunteers to help!

Move church, they aren't all like this. My minister welcomes children and the inevitable noise they make. Often evening services are for quieter reflecton. Otherwise, during the quiet times, there are a team who run a rota for looking after babies and tots in a creche.

Shouldn't churches be encouraging families?

You are being made to feel unwelcome and that is not what church is about.

If you and DH go to the church for religious reasons (rather than so your DC can be seen at church), why not take turns to go on alternate weeks and the other can stay home with DC? Or if there is more than one service, attend one each.

DC could start joining in when they are a bit older and can understand the service. To me there doesn't seem a huge amount of point taking a one year old to a church - I can't see what they would be getting out of it.

Also, if one of you is supervising the 1 year old and one of you is with the 4 year old at sunday school, is anyone getting what they want under this arrangement?

Can I just ask, you say the vicar kept saying "something had to be done". Was that what he actually said? Reason I ask as it sounded to me like he was asking that question to engage your opinion to find a solution to that everyone could get on board with.

I think you need to strike a balance. Yes children and their noise should be tolerated in church but the space is also for worshipers too. I think having two children running up and down, falling, crying, playing catch etc is too much. A child in the pew colouring, playing with a toy and talking to his or her Mum is better.

A child asking questions during the service is almost par for the course, but running and playing is not really on. As a guideline I would say "would I let them do this in a cafe?" and if the answer is no then don't let them do it in a church.
Don't put your desire to attend church before and above everybody else's. You are equal to them, not more important.

It certainly sounds like the service you go to is meant to be a "family" service, if it has sunday school and such. If people want a more quieter service don't go to the family one!

Oh for goodness sake!!
A solution that everyone could get onboard with!

For us, it depends when in the service Dd is being 'active'. I only take her out if she's disturbing during the preach or having a tantrum at other times.

We're lucky though, and have a crèche 4 services out of 5. Could they not have a small section in the Sunday school for younger children so you're only having to keep dc2 in during holidays?

Stunning number of churchgoers here showing no tolerance towards young children with SN. What became of "Suffer the little children to come unto me?"

I would have thought the vicar needs to be talking to someone about setting up a creche, or maybe boarding off the side chapel so that people can't see the dreadful sight of a child playing if they don't like it.

Some lovely Christian attitudes on here.

If there are no children's services it's gerneral expected that main service will be family one so shorter ideally lots of kids songs to join in actions and simple sermon. If you are doing all you can to keep things as good as going to get there not much else you can do. Church is for everyone! It's not like it's every week if there's normally kids church for part of it

At our church they say that they are happy with normal, child noises and that if your child is particularly restless then they can be taken to the creche.

We'd love a staffed creche Larry, we will definitely suggest that! It would take some settling for the children to go in but would really be worth it. It would need to run during non-Sunday School weeks though and to be accessible to Sunday School aged children.

museummum We might suggest a children's area at the back, it's quite cramped there at the moment though and it's open to the back of the rest of the pews whereas the side chapel has only two small entrances, so a bolter (which DC1 still has a bit of a tendency to be, though much improved) has less of a chance to invade other areas of the church from the side.

The Sunday School tends not to run the first and last week of any holiday so that's 6 weeks off for half terms, 6 weeks for Christmas and Easter, and 8 for summer. So yes, that's about 20 weeks, in total.

church activities for kids are books, colouring, jigsaws, craft or construction. Not throwing and catching! Colouring, jigsaws, craft or construction? For a one year old (in fact our 4 yo can't do much of those, except Lego, and then not for an hour)? And an HOUR of books or Lego? Solid? For a four year old? You have very different children to me.

Savoy yeah thanks for that helpful suggestion. We have a choice with DC1 of keeping still and screaming or running around quietly. DC1 did manage to sit with a puzzle book for about 10 minutes during the sermon and then another 5 eating a snack. I thought we did quite well, frankly! There's a limit to how long DC1 will sit still for and this week, we chose to put that limited time to use during the sermon.

We have nobody who can care for them. They are also members of the congregation, remember, so why should they stay home?

The thing is, there are so many families going, but only of older children and they never go on weeks without Sunday School.

As a guideline I would say "would I let them do this in a cafe?" and if the answer is no then don't let them do it in a church

This seems sensible to me

Perhaps other worshippers have been complaining to the vicar, and threatening to leave over your DC's interruptions?

What would I do - well, if I wanted to stay at that church, I might (only might ) consider not taking DS1 when there's no Sunday School, since that keeps him occupied more; or I might take along something with headphones that he could sit and listen to (assuming he will) - in other words, I would try my hardest to keep him quiet, but clearly I don't know how bad his SN are and how (im)possible that might be.

If I wasn't fussed about staying at that church, I'd probably deliver some diatribe about Jesus and the little children and how the church isn't particularly living up to His message, and then go elsewhere.

But I do have to say that I really don't like small children running around in church - don't at all mind them playing quietly, but running around, no.

This is why many families are put off going to church, op ds was not being unduly noisy or disruptive, he was playing quietly. In my church, the vicar welcomes children, and does not mind if they make noise during Mass, the evening mass is a quieter service for reflection.

Incidentally the side chapel has a waist high panel almost all the way down. It has two gates at either end that are also solid. Both our DC are quite short. You can't actually see them from the rest of the church except if they are sitting or standing on the pew. I bet you could see the teddy but not DC1! Only DC2 stood on the pew and only briefly.