Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

MrsBobDylan - not wishing to pry, but he should be able to go to church? We have often had severely disabled adults/children in Church who shout out and laugh and do all sorts of stuff but nobody bats an eyelid? Everyone loves to see them and they get fussed over generally!

If I felt the child in this thread was on that level, my responses would certainly be different. I don't think so though.

Fidelia - I guess the age 7/8 thing came in as you're not considered capable of really knowing right from wrong until that age. may be talking through me arse

It's horrible and unjustified for the most part what's been said on here. For the record, I would have made the choices the OP did. I would have considered a teddy flying up and down (silently mark you) less disruptive than a parental conversation, tantrum and eviction scuffle. I might have been wrong on that judgement call but it would have been the one I'd've made.

She sounds to have made a lot of thoughtful effort to keep her children's behaviour under control AND to engage them in the service. Some posters seem to have made some EXTREMELY uncharitable assumptions about the situation, which don't seem warranted from my reading of drspouse's posts.

thanks Fidelity for those quotes.

also though 10 commandments honour thy father and mother.

Unfortunately my DS has a range of truely inappropriate and thoroughly offensive swear words which he uses repeatedly throughout the day. He struggles to control his anger and can hit out when he's made to be in a place he doesn't want to be. Young children often wander up to him (his own younger brother included) and stand too close which can make ds' feel threatened and angry.

I suppose when I hear people criticise parents who have a slightly disruptive child it makes me realise I'm million miles from finding a way to include my ds.

I think there is a vast divide between those who see church as some sort of extension of their family, and as a community they belong to and are relaxed in, and those who see church as a venue for the study of theology and an intellectual approach to exploring religion and religiosity.

The former are the more likely to think it's OK to let little kids run around and play during a worship service, and the latter are more likely to take the traditional approach of wanting silence for contemplation and appreciation of the historic aesthetics of traditional church service, such as the music, insense (if any), chanting and so on. Kind of like some people think a library is a big playroom for kiddies and others think libraries should be quiet places for study and research.

It's so interesting how different churches deal with this issue. I truly believe the ones who embrace children's attendance regardless of behaviour are the ones who have a future.

DD2 8 months was making a bit of a racket wanting to be fed a few times so I took her out. A very devout lady (from her outfit) came over afterwards to tell me not to worry and that the sound of children in church is wonderful even those who are upset. On Christmas Day at my parent's church the priest at the start and end said children were welcome and not to worry about the noise. It really made me feel welcome with a toddler who has no inner monologue nor whisper level yet and ab as was 6 month old. YANBU of you are regular worshippers and it was a one off.

Oh and I've volunteered with a disabled children's charity who take kids to Lourdes and attend mass every day for a week. The priests and even bishops are incredibly welcoming of SN children and their often entertaining interjections! I've seen a little boy with Down Syndrome climb up onto the alter and sit at the feet of the bishop. Who put his hand on his shoulder for the while sermon. That was my God in action.

MrsBobDylan - please speak to your priest/vicar and ask what they think.
I guarantee you, if it was a Catholic church, the priest would maybe give a little 'warning' at the beginning of mass to all parishoners about the potential behaviour of our new and blessed guest. Maybe towards the end of the ceremony where more is going on? Or at the quieter start? Ask for a place away from people if they upset him? Please don't feel you need to hide him away. Maybe even a one-to-one with priest/vicar might give you and him some solace?

Maybe I'm being unrealistic above, but I genuinely believe that the sick and ill have more right to be in a church than the usual (me included in the latter).

Sorry I haven't read all of the responses, but I'm so sorry you got some such negative ones. I have taken my children to church since they were little, they're now 5 & 2.5 and the younger has been very lively for some months now. The vicar has always been most encouraging of them being there, loves it when they have an impromptu dance during the last hymn etc. I have noticed that when DS is a bit more lively/noisy/disruptive during a service, people in the congregation will tell me afterwards how great it is that there are children in church. Which is very encouraging, and what you should be hearing too. Is there anyone else in church you'd find helpful to talk to? Church wardens etc? It needs to be discussed as you may just feel more anxious and deal with it less well. Hope it gets sorted sympathetically

Our church (RC) do a 9.30 family mass, 11.30 sung mass and a 6pm no signing mass. The understanding is that if you want a peaceful, no child noise mass then you don't attend the 9.30 one. It's quite noisy, especially at the back but that's fine. The parish is full of young families so they are very accommodating of small children and the noise that comes with them.

I totally feel for you, OP, on the one hand you want you and your husband to be involved in the service, and for your children to be welcome, on the other hand other worshippers are finding their behaviour distracting. I can also appreciate the irritation of the parents of 5 and 6 year olds who are telling them to sit quietly while your 4 year old runs up and down throwing his teddy.
Have a chat with your vicar- it may be a creche is now needed on more weeks, or you might have to accept that you are now in a phase between 'baby' and 'well behaved child in pew with picture book' where you and your husband have to take turns as to who is able to go to the service and who gets to take the children out when they become too 'lively' .
have a chat with your vicar but don't stop taking your kids to church!

Thanks HaveIGotAClue - I'm thinking of moving parishes and I might just give your suggestion a go. It does feel as though I'm hiding ds away, or at the very least excluding him and that sits very badly with me.

MrsBobDylan - your boy has as much right and need to be in church as everyone else. Wouldn't it be lovely for him to be there. No church worth mentioning would exclude your son. Please have a chat with a vicar or whoever leads your church. Your boy should be celebrated for his battle. You should too. I would love to hear from you on Sunday if you have brought him to church. Have a word with the vicar first. Not for any other reason other than it will stave off any criticism (I'm just thinking about the swear words etc.). If your boy doesn't enjoy it, then that's fine, but if he does (and he might if there are songs and music), then you stand tall beside him and be proud of him.

Christians being unchristian? Why are you surprised?

Sunday morning christians Lily.

"those who see church as a venue for the study of theology and an intellectual approach to exploring religion and religiosity"

That sounds very serious and more like Bible study than a sermon. I think most people just want to be able to HEAR the service. It's fine if you miss a few words and there's some noise, but not fine if children are making continuous noise and not taken out. What is the point of other people attending if they can't hear anything??

Philippians 2 v 4 'Each of you should look not only to your own interests but also to the interests of others.'

Larry - that applies as much to the OP as to other members of the congregation doesn't it? There are parts of the Bible that say you shouldn't worship in public at all aren't they so I don't think it's useful to be quoting selectively.

Yes, it does apply to the OP as much as to everyone else. Much earlier on I posted about what we used to do to try to stop DS from distracting others in Church. It is difficult to strike the right balance and I thought the verse summed it up well.

Gwen I've never heard that. Do you mean not being showy about worshiping and your giving?

Very sensible verse Larry and I don't think it is quoted out of context.

Gwen are you referring to Matthew 6:5-6?

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I don't think Larry's verse is out of context though tbh. We all need to be mindful of others in church.

Actually most of Matthew 6 wood refers to not being showy.

Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others."

And
16 “When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17 But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18 so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

Yes thanks. Also the tale of the poor widow who gives her last farthing.

I'm sure God loves a joyful focused sincere worshipper whatever their style.

This thread has saddened me in a few ways.

I'm a church leader, married to a vicar and a vicarage kid, so can't get away from the place have experienced many forms of churches throughout my life. I'm saddened by the roasting the OP has received on here, I think in compete disproportion to her dcs behaviour and without understanding of children with SN or being assessed for SN.

So many responses appear to hold church services in similar categories as libraries, cinemas and plane trips. But they cannot be comparable. Churches are not simply places for quiet and solace, as many seem to purport on here. They are communities of people, communities where all are honoured and loved, or should be, where everyone is included, as Jesus modelled and St Paul taught. Services where a man with profound learning disabilities leaps up during the sermon and claps and shouts. Services where a family with seven feral children who've never been taught anything resembling 'appropriate' behaviour and tear around screaming are welcomed and lovingly worked with, their lives transformed and future changed because of the day their desperate mum walked in with them. Services where a lovely old lady with hearing loss screams out the hymns with no relation to the tune being played, and is loved for it. These are all people I have known.

I remember juggling my own at 4 and 1, my dd with then undiagnosed dyspraxia, at the very end of my tether with her. Watching everyone else's children sit happily with their books and their beautiful colouring, and my dd straining at the bit to get down and run, colouring holding her attention for all of two seconds because she was unable to hold a pencil at four. Books helped for a while; minutes at a time, we saved them for sermons and did our best. But our lovely church was welcoming. She twirled and whirled during the songs, sometimes with ribbons and flags, and she delighted in it, and at other times we'd take her to the children's section at the back and she'd play happily and sometimes noisily, but it was OK, because we were a community, and there was acceptance. There were things I wouldn't let her do, of course, there were limits. But it was hard. Parenting SN children is not the same, and there needs to be inclusion in churches as in other institutions, as well as understanding that life isn't always easy, not all people are wonderful parents, some have come with a huge baggage and no model of parenting - and we can help. That should be the attitude. Love, acceptance, gentle guidance, working together.

OP I think the vicar was very wrong to accost you at the end of a service like that. He could have perhaps asked if you were around for a chat in the week, where he could come to you in a relaxed place, the children playing, and not framed it as he did. Perhaps something needs to be done, perhaps not, perhaps it was a stroppy person who doesn't like noise of any sort, perhaps someone having a bad day and needing reflection.

I think it's probably harder because of the type of church you've chosen, but it shouldn't be insurmountable, I was in that kind of environment for a couple of years when my kids were 4 and 7 ish and we got the odd stare, but far more love and acceptance. I do find in general more family friendly churches are easier for young families, but sounds like you really appreciate the type of worship in yours so the solution shouldn't be to go somewhere else but to work in what you have, which may mean educating others and may mean some amount of compromise on all parts, depending on the situation. From what you said in the op, it doesn't sound to me like you were letting your dc be terribly noisy.

Sorry for essay, but this has annoyed me on fronts of both being in church leadership and parenting an SN child. I'd really hope churches could work together to embrace all the community and never fall into the whole church is only for some kind of talk. Church is for all, as God is for all.