Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

Does the congregation know that your dc1 has sn? The parents of one sn child in our church stood up during the notices to explain that their dd was noisy because of her sn and that those who found it distracting should let them know. This defused any irritation.

We encourage parents and older people to sit apart as our older people often find it difficult to hear the service with background kid noise.

Kid noise did not irritate me when my own children were young as it was normal at that stage in out lives. It does distract me now though. I think that compromise is good. Our vicar used to say that 'happy noise' was fine, but that he got distracted by prolonged crying, running etc. to the point that he couldn't concentrate where necessary. So we decided to take our kids out during the sermon and prayers. Not ideal of course, just a compromise. I would encourage you to stick with your church but maybe invite the vicar around for coffee to explain how hurt you were and hammer out a compromise. Also explain (in case he's forgotten) that just getting to church on Sunday with young kids is a massive achievement! Good luck!

I think I'm most surprised by OPs post stating that she thought others in the congregation enjoyed seeing her DC1 run about, etc, instead of being distracted by it. Very self-centered view of things.

I attended RC church as a small child. 1990s, so not a million years ago. There were lots of children present and we were expected to sit still - anyone who couldn't was taken outside by a parent and allowed to run around a bit. Babies went to another room if they were crying and couldn't be soothed. From a very young age I was taught that church was special and holy and not for reading books/eating/chatting in. Some kids had a small toy to hold, but that was it. And yes, it could be very boring, especially when you couldn't see what was going on because of tall adults sitting in front, but it was also seen as important.

Running around and throwing things would have led to consequences at home, as would throwing a tantrum when told to stop running. There's a big difference between this sort of behaviour (whether in a side chapel or not) and the occasional bit of crying/talking/wandering. I'll second what someone else said about most parents not letting children do this in a cinema or theatre, even the parent would prefer not to miss part of the film or play. It's responsible parenting.

Then again, I feel the same way about some of the behaviour I see in libraries.

As a Mummy to an autistic eight year old and a six year old daughter I have been where you are. When my children were 3 and 1, I found church very stressful. Our church are very welcoming and understanding, we have a small room which is soundproof and has children's books and toys. We would sit in there, even though it meant that I heard very little of the service.

Is your son being investigated for autism? If he is, you may find that your son is overwhelmed by the noise levels, smells and the presence of lots of people. As an experienced parent with an autistic child, here are some ideas to help your son cope with church, ear defenders
edzkidz.co.uk/,

sensory toys, for fidgeting, calming I would choose things that are quiet and can keep your son occupied without distracting other church goers. .Some churches have even created their own sensory room for children with SEN.

theinclusivechurch.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/special-needs-ministry-sensory-room-inside-playroom/

and possibly an iPad/ tablet/ kindle to keep your son occupied.We have the Jesus storybook bible on audio book and it might be nice for your son to sit and listen to the bible during the church services. Alternatively there are some fantastic sensory apps on iPad. My son calms down whilst using the sensory apps.

www.audible.co.uk/pd/Children/The-Jesus-Storybook-Bible-Audiobook/B004F34V26/ref=a_search_c4_1_1_srTtl?qid=1455529750&sr=1-1

itunes.apple.com/us/app/sensory-just-touch/id649331809?mt=8

Alternatively there are fantastic church services specifically for children, teens and adults with special needs. I can't think of the name of the group at the moment but will search for you and post here when I find it.

Unfortunately as special needs parents we will always be accused of lazy parenting, yet I bet if half of the people judging were to live a week in our shoes they wouldn't be so quick to judge. What I will say is that there is one person who we can guarantee would not judge, he would never send you away...that is our Lord Jesus.

It may be time to look for a more understanding church, or to worship at home where you will not be pressured.

Sending prayers

OP what path is the SN investigation going down, is it something that directly affects behaviour in this sort of instance? I ask because eat you describe isn't necessarily SN behaviour, just sounds like a run of the mill 4 yo who is allowed to run free.

What, not eat...

In any walk of life theres certain envirnoments where parents need to parent there children, regardless if they have SN parents should a to set se boundaries, as other posters stated who have children with SN they have done. But in a church setting its more important.I'm catholic and it a respected place of worship not a place for children to be making excessive loud noises e.g running up and down. OP could of easily removed the children to quiten down. I've done it myself. I certainly wouldn't sit there and do nothing!

Would you allow your dc to run riot in a restuarant or a supermarket? You can't understand that you were in the wrong here and were too lazy to be a parent.

But one of you already leaves the church for part of the service when you take the 4 year old to Sunday School (you said in your OP that one of you accompanies him). What is the difference between taking your child out when they are noisy and accompanying the elder to Sunday School? I think your response to the Vicar was a bit high-handed even if he caught you on the hop. But I don't think you are interested in a discussion to find a solution, if you are speak to the Vicar to see what he (and the congregation) would be happy with.

A church is not a cinema or theatre where I think people would expect you a child to sit and not disturb others , you have a lasting regular relationship with the church and therefore the current phase will most likely pass and move on. Some of the suggestions may work, but it is a community and acceptance and tolerance are important. Ultimately if this church can't accept then I agree it might be better to find somewhere that can, although I do feel that it is sad if you need to do this.

There seems to me to be something of a consensus among posters.
Congregations should be tolerant of small children and welcoming to families, even more so if the child has additional needs
Parents should balance that by not allowing children to run wild
If a church is not welcoming to small children there are others which may be better for you, sad though that may make you feel

As with most things in life, it is about consideration and compromise. It seems like most posters see that but the OP doesn't

I had problems finding a church when my eldest 2 were little as DS1 has ADHD & high functioning autism and DS2 has Asperger's so they weren't very quiet and I felt embarassed everytime they made a noise or got up from their seats. Eventually I found a church where there was a children's room, but they didn't get taught any Sunday school stories, it was just a creche and I needed to sit out with them most of the time so I felt like I was missing out and like you say it feels pointless to go to church if you don't get in the service.

Eventually I found a church further afield that I really liked and it runs its own separate children's programme. The kids go out after the worship time and then they stay out until the end giving the children space to be children and to be taught something in a fun way that they understand and the adults get the freedom to concentrate on the service. I find that this is definitely the best solution.

I would suggest to your vicar that he is right, it does have to change and it would benefit everyone if he could get a formal Sunday school running both with volunteers from the church and parents and done on a rota so that noone ends up missing every service. A proper kids Sunday school programme running each week in the side room, then everyone will be happy, kids free to be kids and adults free to concentrate on God/prayer.

If that doesn't sell it to him, then remind him that if its a good Sunday school and he advertises it on the board outside his church, then he might get more people attending and some kids might even invite their friends along. It is just so important to have something proper in place to include children and welcome families as it's so easy to feel isolated and unwelcome otherwise.

Kummerspeck well worded. Exactly what I thought.

Well said Kummerspeck.
Also great advice from mummyto2monkeys.

there seems to be a worrying consensus that even if a child has SN that doesn't matter and they need to learn to behave, even if it affects their learning....

Fanjo I would go the other way and say there seems to be a consensus by some that SN means you never need to learn boundaries or how to act in social situations. Which often leads to trouble in schools etc of "he has xxx" end of discussion.

Even a lot of SN children are in mainstream school, are taught appropriate behaviours, are helped by strategies which don't involve throwing toys around in church.

Some people with a disability will never learn how to act in social situations or at least not to the satisfaction of other people. They shouldn't be expected always to leave because of it.

Excately tooaswell, also a diagnosis of SN hasn't been made yet from what OP said. It could just be a hyper active child. Which i'm sure any people can relate to having. But i'm sure people put measures in place to compensate for that. Gosh at about 3-4 my DS could be a nightmare but i didn't let him get on with it.

Fanjo it's not really the child's behaviour that's the issue here, it's the OP's inability to see that perfectly normal but unrestrained 4 yr old behaviour can annoy people in the wrong setting. The child isn't even diagnosed as having SN yet, might be something completely unrelated to being left to play in church for all we know. I've worked with autistic children for several years, I have no desire to put them away nice and tidy, however it takes bloody hard work behind the scenes not just letting them do their thing while I do mine. OP needs to remember the congregation aren't her babysitters.

Oh well then if there's no diagnosis yet nothing must be wrong.

Kids who are fine get assessed all the time of course let's just make no allowances unless there is a diagnosis. Ridiculous.

Too as well it means it is harder to learn and yes not all CAN learn especially at 4.

Will agree to disagree as bored of this same old argument on MN.

All.keep judging away..go for it

Fanjo that's not quite what I said. The OP has only described usual child behaviour and hasn't said what sort of SN they're (and who are 'they'? What stage is it at?) looking into .

Excellent post, Kummerspeck

As a PP mentioned - and as I know from experience - SN children often need more guidance to learn appropriate behaviour, and a lot can be achieved by maintaining firm boundaries. Every child's different of course, but just insisting they can't help it and allowing them to run riot isn't always helpful, to the child or anyone else

Our church have a family service where children are very welcome that's the whole point but they are well behaved and not running around. They have bags of toys and books that you take to where you are sitting. My boys used to like to sit on the steps of the church by the musicians but they didn't run around they watched them playing. The church has a room that is set up for children that you can go into and they have a live video feed to so you can still hear and see the service, people use this room if babies cry or children are getting fedup and start running around. They can make as much noise in this room as they want. Suggest to the vicar they have a family service at the same time as Sunday school where children are welcomed and those that want quiet retrospective prayer do not attend, our church has a 9am service then a 10.30 family service as well as an evening service. The 9am is retrospective full church the family is more relaxed and they do communion once a month to make the service shorter they dont tend to wear robes etc most weeks.

We attended our local church in a newarea as a family with a 3,4 and 5 yr old regularly at the Sunday 'family' morning service and became a real part of the church community. There is no crèche or Sunday School provision. The children would sit quietly at the back on a table with colouring etc, but the vicar (female) would always involve them in the service and come down and chat to them during her sermons to make them feel involved even though it was a traditional liturgy. Then we had our 4th child, who conveniently fell asleep after the 1st hymn and slept through the whole service - and yes I did discreetly breast feed in the church and no one noticed. She continued as a fairly placid toddler and so we continued attending. We were the only under 50s regularly attending with another family who came sporadically though were forever stressed out with a bubbly toddler. Then came a new vicar - male, young and therefore supposedly would be child friendly. However, the opposite was true. Family services became more formal. The vicar distanced himself in a self-important way and didn't involve the children in the service. My husband became disenchanted and refused to attend. I had our 5th baby who was ultra mobile and noisy. So the crunch came when we were arrived at our little children's table one Sunday morning and someone sitting nearby made a huge fuss, saying they didn't expect children to be at the service (ha! - 'family'?) and indignantly moved seats. There were daily services through the week for adults! The children were upset, then expressed they were getting nothing out of going - it was boring - and could do colouring anytime at home. So we moved off to a monthly all-age worship in a hall which is welcoming, inclusive and tolerant - isn't that what being a Christian is about?
If I were you, I'd find somewhere to worship that welcomes your children or they will be put off for life. You need to feel relaxed and they just need to feel normal in a relevant worship environment. It certainly doesn't have to be the way you've experienced it, though you may have to move out of your comfort zone. No surprise that many churches find themselves with a aged dwindling population.