Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

LarrytheCucumber has very good advice. I hope her church community has been supportive.

I think that's a lovely post from Larry

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if I'm repeating others.

My husband is a vicar, and welcomes young children. In fact, at present, he takes great delight in a crawling baby who comes each week and slowly makes her way up to the front without fail. We all understand that children make noise, and to this end we have a children's corner set up if any parents would like to sit there with their young DC and look at books/ play with soft toys/ do colouring. We would certainly rather that than have parents feel excluded from the services.

However, I do think there are limits. Letting your child run up and down and throw toys up in the air sounds a bit excessive to me. The thing is, I have young DC too, and they're far from perfect. I am well used to the noise children make, but a lot of people, with older children, or no children at all, don't welcome that kind of distraction.

Each and every one has the same right to be in that church, and to listen and partake in the service. You all just need to be respectful of one another. I would suggest the solution that needs to be reached is regular Sunday school provision (not just term time only) and also a willingness from you to try and restrain your child's behaviour somewhat while in the service. Our kids know that when daddy is preaching they have to be quiet and either listen to him or do a quiet activity. I'm not saying they always adhere to this, but I find that on the occasion that they do have a moment, people are more understanding as it doesn't happen too often.

I do hope you find a solution.

Mm. I'm someone with grown up children who took them to church when they were little on the understanding that they went to junior church for most of the service, got some attention from the vicar when they joined the main service AND learnt to br quiet for the remainder. It is distracting to have children running around, and while we can all forgive the occasional mishap you need to appreciate your children are making it harder for others to pray. You could take it in turns to attend church or you could move church somewhere the vicar cannot be heard above the sound of children whose parents think church is a playground. That is my local church actually. I don't go there any more because it is an endurance test for priest and congregation. There are options.

So many of these posts consist of "try harder" "be better" "follow my (perfect) parenting example" when it sounds to me that the OP is a bit exhausted and overstretched and really could do without having to set up a crèche all by herself because the vicar has helpfully demanded that SOMETHING must be done.

Of course you are hurt and want to lick your wounds right now (AIBU not best place...). I think what you have to decide though is whether this was just a really bad day when you and the vicar both were off your game and the thing will blow over, with both sides Christianly forgiving the other, or whether it's a deeper problem for you and your family.

Consider whether you feel unloved and unsupported by your congregation (give it a few months to be sure) and consider what would happen if you went to the vicar / someone else in the congregation and told them this, then make your decision accordingly. Don't rush into crèche and junior church rotas straight away trying to fix it (guess what I did and what I feel 10 years down the line??) unless and until you feel this will be appreciated, supported and met halfway by the rest of church

I take my son to a family service where the noise levels are high and this is expected and welcomed. Mid way through the service, parents take it in turns to run the Sunday club in the adjoining room while the service is going on. Children cannot be expected to sit through a 1.5 hour service in silence. We do not live in Victorian times. There is an earlier service for those who want to reflect/pray in peace and quiet. The church need to move with the times or else they will turn young people away from Christianity. Maybe make suggestions for change and if nothing helps, look for a more family friendly church. Good luck xxx

Am truly shocked by the lack of understanding and empathy of some Christians on here.

Geez it really is all about the OP and her precious children isn't it? She has absolutely no consideration for anyone else.

"Suffer the little children" didn't mean that everyone else has to suffer with putting up with your children when they are misbehaving.

Pharisee city on here

I've got nowhere near enough time to read everything so may be repeating.... If so, sorry.

My brother is a vicar and we attend his church with DS. he has a children's corner at the back of church which has lots of soft toys and books. IKEA have all sorts of toys in soft form so it's not just all teddies.
My brother doesn't mind the noise of the children at all - he just asks that noisy toys are left at home so no musical toys or the bloody hot wheels shark car thing that my DS loves!!

Having ploughed through the whole thread my gut reaction to the OPs first post still stands. It's this bit:

This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything ... The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children"

No one has said anything before because something has changed. DC1's noise/activity level has now crossed a line, and one of you is going to have to start taking him out when he gets too bored. This might only be for a couple of months or it might be for a lot longer.

Or find somewhere else. (The ''Happy Clappy'' place is probably your best option ironically). You can't have everything you want sometimes when you're a parent.

Do people think adults or children diagnosed with disabilities that mean they cannot be quiet or sit still, should have to leave the church?

Yes honking, it appears they do.

Inclusion is dead in the water on this thread.

Deplorabelle, I wasn't suggesting that the OP sort a creche out herself. There are other parents there too who would help. However, there are always people that moan about lack of facilities and volunteers but never do anything themselves and always expect "somebody else" to sort it. Somebody has to start the ball rolling. Wait till Primary School when parents have to do all the fundraising for PTA etc. Its always the same volunteers year in, year out. Who does the OP want to set up the creche? (Although actually she doesn't, but she is happy with Sunday School

I can't believe it either Fanjo.

I think there is a total lack of empathy with the fact that the OP has attended this church for 12 years. She knows this church really well. She presumably attended whilst pregnant, bought her new babies to the church, has had them welcomed as part of the Christian family there. And now she's told they are a 'problem'. That's devastating. I don't know how I would cope with that.

If I was then faced with a thread full of people specialising in 'I'm a Christian BUT' posts I'd probably start rethinking the whole thing. This is NOT how Christianity requires us to react.

When I was a nipper, so the best part of 35 years ago, everyone was in the main body of the church for the first 15-20 minutes or so, which consisted of a hymn, a reading, prayers, a short talk, no more than 5 minutes aimed at the children - difficult, because of the mix of ages, but at least aimed very definitely at them, and with a message, sometimes quite visual - and then another hymn.

During that hymn, all the children went out to the schoolrooms next door where there were three options - a creche, junior sunday school and senior sunday school. This ran all year round. Once you got to 16 it was expected that you would stay in the main church for the whole hour-long service. There were a few occasions in the year when the kids would stay in for the whole service or for much longer - baptisms (this was a baptist church, so full immersion stuff), Christmas, Easter, the annual sunday school rally for the district - but in each case the service was a bit more tailored so kids weren't bored.

However, if a mum or baby brought her toddler and didn't want to leave their child in the creche, and stayed in the main service, that was fine. They were sensible enough to leave the service if the baby or toddler cried or became disruptive.

Sorry but I think YRBU. A certain amount of " noise " is fine, but children need to learn that sometimes they just have to sit still ( ish ) and be quiet.
Maybe a brightly coloured prayer book they could sit and look at?

It's a tricky one. We go to a big church and at the family service there are probably 50+ children birth - primary. The first part is all age singing. I agree that Jesus would not want children to be excluded but if we had 50 children making that sort of noise it would be chaos. There are well run children's groups at our church and parents free accompany their children. Quiet children can stay in church. It can be frustrating to feel like all we get from church is to go to Sunday school with a clingy child but we take it in turns as a couple and I see it as a temporary phase. It's worth it because it encourages the family to get used to the routine of attending church regularly (and I look forward to the day we can both listen to the talk) and because it's a large church I've got to know other mothers in crèche. If I was in your position I would make use of the quiet room and take it in turns with your husband (or look for a church that suits your needs better)

Have not RTFT but I suspect the easiest thing to do would be to find a new church with lots of young families where noise is a normal thing. IM(limited)E old, historical churches with older congregations are not the ideal place for young, noisy children.

That would be my take hopeless. My church is fairly easy going. Maybe in an old building sound is magnified.

I'm sure OP knows lots of people there and something will be sorted out.

I have read much but not the full thread so apologies if I'm restating an idea. Have you ever tried sitting at the front? I know it takes guts with lively DC but often they behave much better because they can see. Just make sure that you have a bag of quiet toys, colouring stuff and snacks. Also a trip to the park beforehand may help burn off some energy.

You will always get a range of views on a thread like this depending on what experience people have of church. Some churches are naturally noisy with lively children and learn how to deal with that, others are very much quiet, contemplative spaces. But, as a church leader, I would personally be trying to work with you to find a way of keeping you in the church. I think you need to talk to the vicar.

You have to wonder what changed for two people to comment on your children's behaviour. Now maybe the vicar and some other elements of the congregation were just have a bad day but you also have to consider that perhaps your children were simply more disturbing than usual. A balance has to be struck between your needs and the needs of the rest of the congregation and clearly on this occasion the balance was tipping.

When I was a regular churchgoer - twenty or so years ago - children were appreciated in church services and a certain amount of crying, shouting, and the odd frantic escape from the pew would be smiled at. But persistent, noise and constant running about would prompt the parent to remove the child at least temporarily.

If it doesn't work out try to find another church but don't go with your feathers all ruffled blaming the vicar for being unreasonable. You may not have found it disturbing (you are used to it after all) but clearly others did.

I have this problem too because our Sunday School is only for the 4 pluses. The situation is not ideal but I take the view that it's not for ever. We start off by sitting in a less busy section and I deliberately choose books and"quiet" toys which don't beep or rattle. Also snacks - if my son starts talking loudly during a quiet Kyrie or Sanctus, a judiciously applied breadstick or carrot can be quite effective. But while our vicar is very pro-children, our unspoken deal is that if my son gets noisy or rowdy to the point it is distracting other people, I take him out. If he threw a toy, that would be straight out. We go and sit in a rather dull room at the back with the service relayed over loudspeaker, and there's a box of toys provided by the church. (They give the older children colouring pencils and activity sheets during services in the holidays) Then just before the end of communion, we go back in and stay until the end. Yes it is not ideal but even though I can't participate fully in the service it is still nice to see other members of the congregation before and afterwards. They are all very friendly to my son and me, maybe because they can see I make massive effort to make sure we don't ruin their worship.

Oh and there was a regular family service where no-one batted an eyelid at noise and chaos, but a little more calm and quiet was expected at the other services.

I feel sorry that you've had that experience. At my church any behaviour from children is acceptable. Our children's corner is right at the front so they can see everything - children are naturally inquisitive. On non Sunday school weeks we often put colouring sheets related to the theme we're working on in the corner. My boy is two and wanders all over the place - usually supervised by one of the older children - and loves wandering up behind the altar and taking communion with the choir rather than his family!! None of it is a problem. X