Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

Ah, one of the downsides of the 'pray, don't pay' scenario. Our church is full of children there not (just) for spiritual guidance and enlightenment but as a free pass into the local - and free - C of E school. If that sounds cynical it is because it is. **
The layout of our church sounds spookily similar to that of the OP but we don't have Guides, so it can't be the same place. A soft play area has been created for babies and toddlers and is well-equipped; parents, who know better apparently, bring their own wooden bricks, metal trucks and even for Heaven's sake, drums for their DC to play with. There are Under-5 and Over-5 groups operating for most of the service in different parts of the church and another area to where the service is relayed. No shortage of options for parents. Except for the parents who insist on keeping their children with them with absolutely no respect for others. We have had children playing hide and seek round the altar during the Intercessions - one of the most solemn parts of a Eucharist service during which Christians are encouraged to think and pray deeply about their faith. We have children screaming during the reading of the Banns of Marriage - pity the poor young couples who have come to hear this exciting run-up to their wedding, only for it to be drowned out. I could go on.
if parents are attending church as a device to save money ( see above**) then all they need to do is attend 3 times per month to get their boxes ticked - it doesn't matter where they happen to be in the church. If they are genuinely Christian ( big C and little c ) then they should have compassion and consideration for their fellow attendees and not allow their children to compromise the equanimity of others. Parenting is one big compromise but some are too selfish to see it. Yes, Jesus did say, 'suffer the little children to come unto me,' but I think even He might have acknowledged that there is a time and a place for a drum solo and it is NOT during the Lord's Prayer.

I don't have children, and I go to church to reflect. I have no problem whatsoever with babies grizzling and gurgling - its what babies do, and they don't know how to do anything different. Badly behaved older children running around and throwing things about are a totally different matter.

Either take control of your children, or stop bringing them until they are old enough to be able to behave properly. There are times and places where it is appropriate to run amok (e.g. soft play etc), and times and places where it isn't. You are going your children to favours if you don't teach them the difference.

That should be "doing your children no favours"!

You will always get the children should be seen and not heard (or preferably not seen either) brigade in church. Well done to you for having the tenacity to try and work things out. I'm really lucky and my church's congregation have been largely supportive (even through my then two year old's preoccupation of running round the font and stacking hymn books). now he is nearly four he will generally sit and colour/do jigsaws/argue with a child using a pen he wanted, but I have heard the comments that I am sure I was supposed to overhear about noisy toys etc. My attitude is that the church is open to all and they should either move towards the front or go to another service. Jesus said - suffer little children to come unto me, he did not qualify it by saying "so long as they are quiet and sit still"

That being said, I have always tried to keep the noise to minimum as its not a soft play centre and I have taken my son out a few times to have words! Its always that balance of which will create less noise, what they are doing or a full scale meltdown

Hear are some suggestions though

Move the kids area to the back out of the eyeline of people, then people who are bothered can sit closer to the front.

Be near an exit - sometimes retreat is the only way forward, even if its for a couple of minutes

take turns with Dad to go into another room between 2nd hymn and communion - use this time to read out of say the Lion's Bible the story which is being covered in the service - it gives everyone some respite you, your kids and the complainers - Im sure God will view this as just as important as listening to a sermon

ask the vicar whether your 4 year old can have a job, helping an adult with the collection, blowing out candles at the end of the service, carrying a children's cross etc

Explain your 4 year olds SN to your vicar

pray for God's help on this

Best of luck - you and your church will be in my prayers that a resolution can be found

I'm a vicar and I'm sorry you feel spotlit like this. I would love to have more young children in church. I also know that just as it's hard to tone down energetic chidlren, any noise by others can be distracting to some worshippers, and that ranges from the squealing of a low battery in a hearing aid to the shouting of over-excited toddlers.
Many other worshippers are just so glad to have a range of ages that they tolerate more than they feel personally comfortable with for the sake of unity. It takes all sorts.
Yes, people sometimes complain. Usually it's because they remember a time when children were expected to be quiet and still, and there's a sense of unmet expectation. (They had to be quiet when they were little and now...)
My usual comment is that I can cope with age-appropriate behaviour, and encourage the same from others.
Other than that I try to keep good order; certainly I can make like a very wide load if toddlers look as if they are going to try to get past me to a point where they might be in danger, but if some parents choose to handle their children in a different way to when my kids were small, well that's the way the world is now.
I'd encourage soft play, and also where possible, to include the children in the action - "look, Mummy's praying, can you do the same?" rather than expecting to divert or entertain children. Likewise they often get more out of a service if they are at the front rather than the back, and included in the talk/prayers etc.
We provide the occasional 'Messy Church' as a complete alternative, but I haven't yet found a solution that meets all needs (I'm guessing that's not possible in any community, even a bunch of Christians), so tolerance and going a bit further than preferences is the only answer I can think of; along with quiet and rational discussion about why things are as they are and how others can help. (One of our ladies often offers to sit with the children in church at a play table so the parents can concentrate on the service.)
I'm watching this with interest to see what others suggest.

I've read the OP only - started reading the rest, but people seemed to be making it up as they went along. I'm assuming that the collossal number of posts means a bunfight somewhere along the line.

What our Church does is to have a completely separate child area for the children that can't sit or play quietly. There is a televised link to the service that parents and carers can watch while supervising their children.
Another Church I've attended had two Church members supervising the separate room as a creche.

As far back as 40 years ago, when I was a child attending a different Church, there was a separate room with toys and an audiolink so parents could still hear the service. A little later, they also taped the service so those who missed it could borrow to listen at home.

It sounds as though this Church may have something similar in place and so they have already made provision for noisy children. Op was directed to use it, but refused. Perhaps next time it might be worth giving it a try and see how you get on?

I've been thinking about this thread a lot (MUST. FIND. SOMETHING. ELSE. TO. DO.)

I'm Catholic. There is no such thing as play areas/sunday school etc. in the Irish Catholic churches (not sure about English ones).

As a child, every single one of us were lugged along to Mass. And by every single one of us, I mean every child in the village.

For some reason, there was never any misbehaviour. Yes, you'd see (boys especially), turning around and fidgeting. Personally, I used to ask my Dad 'is it near to communion time?' (as I knew that meant we were nearing the end of the ordeal lol), but really and truly, there was no misbehaviour.

There was one particular family though that always sticks in my mind. Traditionally, we always sat at the back, and this family sat a few rows in front. 4 boys. The parents used to separate them (child, Dad, two children, Mum, child). It was a source of great entertainment to me, as at least once a week, the mother would clatter one of them across the head (not funny, I know). I think she alternated who to clatter each week. Gosh, it's mad when I think of it.

I do recall however, one day, my little sister, aged one, had gotten new shoes. So, she stomped her way up the centre aisle, just loving her new shoes and the echoing sound it made around the church. Then she peered through the railing at the priest, until I was told to go up and get her (mortification). When it came to communion time, my mother went up for communion holding said delinquent in her arms (a very solemn affair back in the day), and apologised to the priest. The priest, a lovely elderly man said 'don't worry, she's a beautiful child' and blessed her.

I don't know how or why, but everyone just knew that you did not dare misbehave at Mass. It was as simple as that.

The only other sermon/service I've ever attended was an Anglican one. It happened to be one of their monthly family day services. The children were involved here and there, but again, there wias no misbehaviour.

So, I'm not sure exactly what the solution is OP, but I genuinely think that you should try to keep some control over your son. The baby is a different story, but just try to get the little lad to sit with you, sing the hymms, explain what's happening, but try to keep him under some sort of control?

And before everyone gets up in arms about the fact that he may have special needs, back in my day, there were a significant number of children with similar issues. But they did not misbehave at Mass.

inlovewithhubby - crossed posts, but you are echoing my thinking also...

Hi all,

We can see that this is a really emotive thread and that lots of you have very strong feelings.

We just wanted to drop a link to our 'This Is My Child' campaign, here: www.mumsnet.com/campaigns/this-is-my-child-about-the-campaign which aims to dispel the myths surrounding children with additional needs.

Lastly - we could all do with support, especially through the tricky business of parenting.

Thanks

inlovewithhubby spot on.

The children with severe sn wouldn't have been taken to mass so although all the children in your village may have gone there will be some that wouldn't.

YANBU. For all the reasons listed by daemon, backforgood and hedgehog. A church service is not a playgroup. People go there for quiet reflection. Do what the rest of us have had to do: If you can't keep your child quiet, take them outside to settle them down and only come back in when they're quiet. Rinse and repeat until they learn the acceptable behaviour required for church. (And, yes, my child has autism, but it's not an excuse for bad manners).

honkinghaddock - you're incorrect there. Also, a friend of mine now has a son (12 maybe) with severe autism (he doesn't speak), but he manages to sit quietly and play on his ipad thingy during Mass.

No I do not have disablist thinking. What an odd thing to say.

Autism is a spectrum condition and children on it vary greatly in their ability to learn manners.

Mine hasn't got the ability or interest to play on an ipad. As I said it is a spectrum condition.

Well you just said you agreed with the thinking of someone who was deleted for a disablist post...not that odd thinking really

Wishiwasnt not all kids with autism can learn acceptable behaviour. You'd think you'd be a bit more understanding about this really.

What a disappointing thread.

'This is my child' is and was a great campaign.

How is it relevant here? Is it something that would make sense if we could see the deleted post?

'This is my child' is and was a great campaign.

How is it relevant here? Is it something that would make sense if we could see the deleted post?

Squidgeymidgey is another one agreeing with a deleted post.
What a lot of disablist ignorant thinking there still is on MN.

Why has this thread devolved into a discussion on autism? The OP's child has no such diagnosis. In fact, he seems quite capable - quite a typical child really. If he is capable of throwing and catching a teddy, he is capable of sitting and having a bit of manners. But, if he is not taught to do so, he is not likely to do so.

I would guess it was the section about behavioural disorders not being an invention to cover up bad parenting which was relevant here..just maybe.