Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

"Suffering"

The church should welcome everyone. Absolutely everyone. A Sunday service should include all who wish to attend, including noisy children whether that be due to age, SEN or shit poor parenting.

A church needs to be inclusive at all times, If they aren't, they should shut up shop and fuck off.

Sanctimony, as displayed by the Pharisees (and many, many posters on this thread) definitely got up Jesus's nose.

Spot on

Also did anybody actually bother reading my link lower down because I'm getting awfully sick of reading 'what's the point in you taking little children to church' posts.

Perhaps the congregation should treat it as an exercise in tolerance and understanding [sounds like the vicar could do with a bit of revision in this area too]?

I'd say the old ladies were much more likely to turn up with a hacking cough that no-one can hear over than be chatting as someone stated - but the principle is the same.

A 4 year old presented with toys, in a space set aside for children to play with toys, is going to play with them. This is aside from the fact this particular child may have additional needs which makes it difficult for them to behave as [some] adults would expect them to.

All those on this thread stating that the OP should 'make' her child be quiet and not draw any attention to himself should try, just for one minute, to put themselves in her shoes. She's struggling a bit with 2 kids, one of whom in particular has his challenges. And remember, they're NOT YOUR SHOES. So no BS about your perfect parenting skills etc etc....just try it....

It's so hard isn't it. I don't know the answer but here are some thoughts.
The vicar said something has to be done. Do you have any time/energy to start making that "something" happen? Eg put forward a suggestion of how young children/parents can be involved, go up for election to the PCC with a parents/young children agenda, ask if a creche can be set up in part of the room used by the Sunday school, set up a visible 'parents of young ones' group who can support each other somehow etc.

One church we've been to has the little ones come to the front and do crafty type things on a mat right there as the service goes on around them. Somehow it really works. Maybe it's a combination of the children really feeling a part of it and so emulating the quiet adults around them along with parents feeling relieved that they are not expected to hide their offspring at the back.

Funny that. I would think sanctimony would definitely cover accusing people of just going to church for school places and insisting you have a right to dictate how a church should be because you've been going there longer and you have 'views' far more sanctimonious than a few polite requests not to ruin the service for others.

herethereandeverywhere my parenting skills are by no means perfect but I don't think it's acceptable to let my child run free around other people simply to avoid a tantrum which is what OP said she did. She doesn't seem to understand why anyone could have issue with her not supporting her dc1's behaviour.

Squidgey Do you think a tantrum would be preferable to a teddy throw in the air?

Well I think her point was that a screaming meltdown would have been a lot more disruptive to the congregation

I don't think it's about "sanctimony" from either side.

memememum, there's no point giving helpful suggestions or suggesting compromises the OP has made it abundantly clear she has absolutely no interest in that sort of course of action.

All she wanted to hear was 'Yes, you are absolutely right and the rest of the church are horrible, carry on as you are'.

Thank you fanjo precisely the point I was making.

Not difficult to put yourself in OP's shoes to understand why she's made the parenting choices she has in that scenario.

herethereandeverywhere it appears that in that situation it would be preferable to scoop up the tantrum and take it outside to air. There's no easy answer but the OP's air of feeling the congregation should all mould to what she wants/needs seems wrong to me. Being a parent sometimes means you compromise because your children simply done slot into certain parts of your life. It is U to expect the world to change bcause it suits your new dcs.

If you are going to raise your dc with good manners, including consideration for other people, that has to start young and it should apply everywhere, even in church.

I used to lift my dd up and carry her out of the church and straight back home if she made too much noise. She soon learned what the boundaries were. Some noise is ok while playing, but there has to be a limit beyond which it is just bad manners. In fact walking out of church is a really good opportunity to teach this lesson, since there's no penalty for leaving early.

We had similar in trains. Too much noise and we got off at the next station. She soon learned. People like hearing dc's laughing and playing, but only up to a point!! Everything in moderation (unless they have SEN).

The boy in OP probably does have SEN though?

Squidgy at that age if the boy has Sn he possibly couldn't learn to make that connection like an NT child can.

So he should miss out on church? Not very Christian or inclusive IMO.

Also, to the parent of the tomato squisher, the congregation don't think it's lovely. They are trying to be tolerant but really they find it teeth grindingly aggravating. No-one else thinks your (or my) disruptive child is anything other than a pain in the ass.

At four you should be helping your child get involved wit the service, this is what I did.

• Sit near the from in church, 3rd or 4th row is good then your child can see.
• Take their shoes off so that they can stand on the pew during songs.
• point to the words in the book or sit during the songs with them standing so they can hear the words.
• Visit a Christian book shop their are children version of the liturgy lots of pictures.
• have a book bag with a clip board with colouring, books and sticker in for the quite bits of the service. My church made some packs for children so they had different each week.
• small quite snack, watch out for mess. *aim to keep them in the pew as long as possible. If they are restless take them out to side chapel or quick run outside.

It will take time as well as your children learning how to behave in church you have to learn the best way to parent them in church. People can see what your children are doing if they are in the pew. Noise only travels a few rows if they can't see them. All kids ask question at the quite points or say inappropriate things Normally only a few people hear it. I have had my kids say "Its dusty under here why don't they clean Gods house?" it was only really heard by a few people one of which was the cleaner who cleaned the church better the next week :)

Love people blithely ignoring the child's likely SN and calling him a PITA and giving probably my inappropriate tips.

Not sure why my phone added the my there.

Anyway I hope people saying things like "no one thinks your child is anything but a PITA' don't call themselves Christians.

Northern was right with her sanctimony comment.

The OP is doin her best to keep a child with behavioural issues quiet. It might not be as easy for her as it is for you sneerers.

A person can still get something out of being there without understanding what is being said. Ds likes going to church with school despite not knowing what it is for.

My DS has AS undiagnosed until he was 12. Church was difficult for us, especially when we went to a large church with many well behaved children (including a little girl with quite severe learning difficulties, who managed to behave well sitting between her parents). When he started to get fed up we used to take him to the vestibule with his special 'Church bag' and occupy him as quietly as we could. In summer when there was no children's work we used to take it in turns to take him to the park during the sermon. It was all about compromise. We tried not to distract other worshippers, tried to be fair to each other by taking turns and tried to be fair to DS by not making too many demands on him. No one would say it was easy but we did recognise that we could not expect everyone else to revolve round him, especially when their own children were sitting quietly.
I don't think condemning the OP helps. I think she and her partner do need a chat with the vicar to discuss the issue.

Children go through phases, they grow up, they change. Some teenagers go to church with their phones and look at these again often a phase, at least they are there. If ultimately this church decides that they want to have a particular code then that sadly means people will leave, and many don't go elsewhere. I think this church needs to accept that children are not always going to act as they want. Yes they can try and provide activities, but ultimately if this particular church want the family to stay they need to accept this is a phase.