Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

Northern sorry but I agree with sirchenjin The OP clearly has no regard for the other church goers. As has been said countless times low level noise is fine but running around and throwing things, sorry but no. How can you expect your DC to sit quietly when necessary in school if you won't even teach them to sit quietly for a church service? It's doing the church a disservice. By allowing children to run riot how can you then expect them to want to come to church and sit quietly as they get older? I really don't see how it's benefiting them and bringing them up in the religion when they just see it as a fun time to play - they can do that at home when not disrupting others.

OP your kids sound mild compared to mine in church.

The older two are OK now but the youngest is a riot. He joins the vicar on the top platform, at Xmas he took baubles from the tree and handed them to him during the sermon, at harvest he mangled a load of tomatoes in a display (I cleared up after him). Up and down on the pews, round and round the font.

I am routinely told by members of the congregation - and especially older people - how much fun he is, how much they like watching him, how i 'mustn't worry'.

I only go to the family service once a month because I think once a week would be a bit much.

If I didn't feel welcome I wouldn't go, but I feel welcome.

Find a better church.

That's not the case at all in our church gwen. They actively try to recruit people without young children so parents get a break. Male volunteers are very positively received. It's an outdated view that all childcare is women's work and I'm pleased my church (at least in this respect) is moving with the times.

Churches do lose out when families leave, even if it is a little quieter. People miss out on the opportunity to consider each other and serve one another. People miss out on having a range of ages and experiences, and potential volunteers when they finally grow up.

One of the windows at church has "suffer the little children to come unto me" on. Makes me smile, as ds suffers when he goes to church and so does everyone else to some extent. we make an effort to meet the church half way... they save us seats near the door, we use it when required. he will not be able to sit quietly for quite a while and does not tolerate the sunday school as it is too distressing for him.

WWJesusD?

Seriously; would Jesus make the parents feel awkward about their kids being kids? Imply some kind of exclusion was necessary? Insinuate that church is only for quiet obedient people?

Just a thought...

OP, is your DC1 at school? I suspect from the 4 year old and 'being investigated for mild SEN' they probably are. If so, then they will be used to the idea that certain behaviour is expected in certain places - for example, when the teacher is talking or reading a story to the whole class, or when reception goes into assembly, it is expected that everyone sits quietly, and that those who are find it very hard to sit quietly due to SEN have specific support to move towards that 'norm' of behaviour (e.g. some children may have fiddle toys, a pencil and paper or whiteboard to scribble on, a specific cushion, a place next to an adult or a restricted amount of time when they are exposed to that expectation).

Is it worth talking to your DC1 about which part of school church is like - is it like playtime? Like the part of each day when they are working in the classroom but when the teacher isn't talking? Like storytime? Like assembly? You can then work from there to what behaviour is expected at that particular time, and how that behaviour is also what is expected in church.

IME - and I used to take 2 under 3s to church by myself - one of the things which determines other people's reactions is how hard you are trying to get your child to conform to the expected norm for a church service. If you have taken along quiet toys, books, colouring, sticking, a favourite soft toy, and are obviously fully involved with your child and are trying to ensure that they are engaged - talking quietly to them,lifting them up to see, reading an appropriate story, changing activities for them regularly - then if the child, despite your best attempts, decides to break out and go for a wander, the vast majority of people will be utterly sympathetic (I was struck by a PP's description of a catholic service, when this seemed to be exactly what was tolerated - parents actively trying to engage with their children and ensure that they were engaged with the service). If on the other hand you are effectively ignoring your child, or even encouraging 'outdoor play' behaviour, smiling and making 'oh isn't he sweet and energetic' faces, then people are likely to be less tolerant.

Exactly why I don't go to church anymore. Anyone and everyone should be warmly welcomed. Do members of the congregation forget that they were once children and/or parents. I personally would find another more family friendly church.

I think you might need to find a church that has childcare provision during the holidays as it sounds like you want to be in the service but may be your DCs need a bit of space to run and play that isn't the side chapel.

I wonder if it was the repeated falling over and (very short but possibly loud) crying that was the issue, or does the sound carry from the side chapel out into the church? May be it is that it always seems to be your children and it's a reaction that's built up over time?

Our old church had Sunday school running almost every week except the summer holidays, during those 6wks there was a parent rota for supervising a veggie tales DVD and some simple play in one of the back rooms. That meant there was space for kids to be kids during the quieter bits of the service. I think that approach is win-win. Kids in for the worship times where they are less of a distraction, but out for the quieter bits.

DH and I used the crèche room regularly with DD (and now with DS) even though there is no audio or visual link. I took it as something that would only last a few years and it was a sacrifice we made (as in not being in the whole service) for the benefit of everyone else there. DH and I took turns, so two weeks out of four I was in the whole service. This includes taking out DS during all age services where there's no provision.

I think if your church has a separate room available for use then you should use it if your child is being a distraction (either by their noise or just what they're doing). If there isn't enough Sunday school provision (and you and DH want to be in the meeting) then you need to organise it or move churches to one that meets your needs better.

I don't think your Vicar is wrong to raise the issue (although could have handled it better to give you the reason why today was a problem). Without speaking to him/her, you won't know what the actual problem was.

Only skim read, but have sat through literally thousands of services with children of varying levels of attention/behaviour, ranging from impeccable and angelic to verging on criminal!!

My theory - when they're small, give them a 'taste' of church - I would insist on sitting still, even if it's just for the first hymn! Don't be too ambitious in what they can stay in for - SO many services we stayed until the Gloria, then I or dh would take whichever child was itching to maraud outside into the churchyard, they could run off steam, and the other parent would stay in with the children who could cope. We'd then come back in in time for communion.

I think as parents we do forget how distracting and disruptive child noise can be - when you have small children, you can zone out of the noise. When you're older, or if you have hearing issues etc, it can become impossible to filter out.

Blackeyedshepherd I don't agree churches lose out. Not when it comes down to losing families like the OP. It's not particularly difficult to try and teach your DC. Nobody is asking for complete silence, or at least they shouldn't. But trying to quieten them down doesn't go amiss. Whatever happened to quiet activities...

Iam yes we were all once children but I'd rather hope my parents would've taught me not to throw things around when it's a quiet environment. You wouldn't dream of letting DC run around and throw things in a library, so why is it okay in church?

This has clearly really upset you: it's horrible to feel unwelcome, and understandable to write what's happened today back into the past.

If it were me, I'd wait and see what happens. Your DH is on the PCC, and it's there that things will be discussed. Maybe things do have to change (though I agree with you - hard to see quite why!), but it isn't your job to change them. As others have said, perhaps the vicar had been being browbeaten by someone else, and said more than he intended.

Our children are finally all old enough for Sunday school. They can go alone from 3 to ours; younger than that they are expected to be out completely for 3/4 of the service, with a parent (it's too tough to arrange a creche for our size of church). So I've had years of feeling ostracised and unwelcome - not even in Sunday School. I am still bruised from that, to be honest. But it is hard for churches...

Also, fwiw, at our church, the kids stay in for the first half from the age of 3, and they don't sit with parents - by and large they sit beautifully for about 40 mins or so. When they don't (ds3), there are usually people in the congregation who encourage them to sit still and teach them how to behave. What they don't say is 'it's fine to run around and throw things' .

I know that your ds1 may have SNs, and that will change things a bit, but there is often an assumption that children CAN'T sit still, and really most of them can, but they need to be taught to, in a nice, supportive way.

We are Catholics (me and DSs, not DH) and I take them both to Mass both weeks. There is a Sunday school for primary school aged children, which my 6 year old goes to and enjoys, but my 4 year old is still in nursery so can't go. He is a very active boy, gets bored easily and I am exhausted at the end of a service trying to keep him entertained! Lego and drawing helps. He doesn't run up and down though; I have never let him or his brother. That said, if a toddler was running up and down it wouldn't bother me too much.

Our wonderful priest is 86, and fit and active. Church services are noisy, with toddlers and babies but he, and most others, love it that way. He often slips into the sermons that children are very welcome, and acknowledges that it is hard work bringing them, but he is so glad we do. He even openly 'told off' people who give us funny looks when my little one is naughty.

My parents church, by contrast, is quiet during services. There are few little ones. I really dislike going; it seems dead in a way that ours isn't; it is living and active. Their church is often nearly empty; ours is often standing room only.

At the moment I don't get a huge amount spiritually from it as I would like, as I can't listen! However that will come with time. In the meantime I get so much from the living, soulful community we are a part of; it is very welcoming and sociable. I meet all sorts of people and feel I have a cushion of prayer and community around me and my family. It extends to the school; some of the teachers go, and my boys have found/will find it easier to go to school as the people are familiar and know them as well as me.

Writing that makes me so grateful for the community me and my family are a part of. I would love my husband to come; but there is no point in forcing it. It gives him some time to himself on the mornings we go, which is important too.

YABU. Playing quietly is fine. Running around throwing toys is not. Why didn't you or your husband take the 4YO into the separate room?

I'd be mortified if my 3 spirited 3YO behaved like that and they'd have been swiftly removed. Apologise and control your children!

I think you need to find activities such as a book or colouring which can be done in the pew but no running around. Otherwise one of you will have to take him out of service and take it in turns with oh to stay in service.

Our church has a creche and groups for different ages and is very tolerant of little ones but I think you have to consider the other members in your church and your dc has to fit in and not run around.

This is such a load of rot. This is not an unwelcoming church. It is a church which makes provisions for children and appears to have a lot of other child attendees who go without problem.

The problem is that the OP will not consider modifying their behaviour, will not consider another church. She is expecting the entire congregation and church ethos to change to suit her instead.

"Seriously; would Jesus make the parents feel awkward about their kids being kids?"

Were children so indulged in year zero Palestine?

MollieCoddler I cannot believe you allow your child to behave like that. It must be very off putting for the vicar and the rest of the congregation. You sound almost proud of the behaviour.

"Do members of the congregation forget that they were once children and/or parents."

I am, my mum didn't take me when I was a baby/toddler. I started going to services when I was old enough to behave. I don't see what I would have got out of it as a baby anyway. I went to Sunday School from an early age, but that was separate from the service.
How children are treated changes from generation to generation anyway.

I don't remember Jesus's "Don't indulge your children" sermon - do enlighten me as to which book it resides in...

Yes but Christianity is big on putting others before yourself and not being selfish.

Well exactly woodhill. That rather cuts both ways though, don't you think?

Indeed but it sounds as though it has been going on for a few weeks.

I haven't read the entire thread, but from the first few pages I'm surprised at the pasting the OP is getting from some responses. I would have thought it was up to the community as a whole to work out how parents with young children can be included in services, whether that be designated family services, more extensive crèche provision, or a more tolerant culture with regards to small children behaving like small children. I'm rather at the vicar saying that "something needs to be done" rather than making some kind of proposals for what should be done. OP, I'm sorry you've had this upsetting experience, and I hope you'll go and talk it over with your vicar, including asking him what can be done to make the services inclusive for you and your family.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children.

Now to my way of thinking, that's the really problematic part of the OP - implication being that her church is full of families who feel obliged to start attending church services simply to secure school admissions. If I was the vicar I'd be far more concerned about this practice than about the OP's children.

Hear Hear morningtoncrescent62