Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

(or perhaps not if they don't relate well to children! I just meant that some people like to moan without ever offering to help).

Honestly, I think without knowing your vicar and having seen your church setup and the behaviour of your children it's just impossible to know who is unreasonable. Children shouldn't be hugely disruptive but they should be welcome. As I said in a previous post children are massively welcome in our church but are also somewhat controlled. I'm really struggling to think of a situation where the pastor would 'tell off' a parent, it's more likely that another person in the congregation would have stepped in and offered the parents a hand well before then. Which is why I maybe assumed that your children really were being disruptive.
However, thinking about the 'welcome' I got when I took mum to her local church 2 Christmas's ago as I was staying there, I think some churches are just cliquey and unfriendly, which is very sad. We got a pointed comment about 'see you next year' as we were leaving - I decided not to point out that was fairly likely as I attended church the rest of the year in Malaysia, which is where I was then living! It actually meant I didn't go at all this year as I was with them again and couldn't face that. If your church is equally sniffy and unfriendly I'd just find one that's not. There must be a church near you with weekly Sunday school and crèche and you just need to muck in and take a turn running them and hopefully it will mean the rest of the weeks you (and everyone else) can concentrate on worship and the kids will have fun.

Perhaps the moaners at church could offer to help organise a creche?

The OP's children not being able to sit quietly is not their problem.

The OP's children not being able to sit quietly is not their problem.

Their lack of tolerance is...

Perhaps the moaners at church could offer to help organise a creche?

I do wonder though why it is a parent cannot resolve any issues with their own children and their behaviour? Churches around the world function well without Sunday school, creches or childcare of some sort. Parents arm themselves with distractions, teach their children how to behave, and if they don't behave, deal with the situation. Nobody is saying children need to be mute at mass, but equally, parents need to be responsible for managing their child's behaviour.

As others say, I've not read the entire thread but this smacks of the incredibly common modern phenomenon of parents allowing their children to roam feral in inappropriate places and then wonder why people get fucked off. Church, restaurant, cafe, any public place - not everyone wants someone else's badly controlled child ruining their experience. It is never appropriate to allow a child to run around unchecked outside of a playground or other designated child centred place. What planet are you parents on? Would you get fucked off if someone shouted, ran around, chucked stuff about when you were in the cinema or theatre? If the answer is yes then just think, for a minute, about someone else and reflect on just how unreasonable your behaviour, and that of your children, is. The world does not revolve around you and your offspring. Well done the vicar who told you exactly that.

Another one who hasn't read the entire thread, but I'm completely with inlove. Your children are disturbing other people at church - to the extent that the vicar has had to speak to you about it. Rather than moaning about 'your rights' I would suggest that you look pretty sharpish at ways that you can stop pissing others off. There have been some really good suggestions on here already.

If you are going to subject your children to a 'church service' then you need to make sure they arnt a pain in the arse to other worshipped.

If you can't keep them Sat Down
And occupied then take turns going with your dh until they are older.

Simple.

It's this kind of attitude that really bugs me:
" I'm not doing Sunday School, I already do Guides, work, and have two small DCs. DH works, is on the PCC and has two small children. "

Right... so the rest of the congregation don't have a tonne of things of to do also.... you can't complain there's no provision, let your kids run riot and then refuse to do anything about it because your life is so much more important than the rest of the congregation!

I think when SEN is brought into it its a whole other ball game. I think there does need to be more tolerance - mass or service is a celebration not necessarily about seeking solace - thats for funerals surely. Its one hour out of a week when many churches have services every day or at least within the parish there is that opportunity.

25yrs ago the church I attended had the sweetest boy attend - he attended the whole of his life from being a baby through to adulthood, later in life his older brother was the priest. He had downs syndrome and he was allowed to roam around the church and alter freely if he escaped his Mum - he was curious and used to go and sit along side the alter boys and hold the priests hand.

The purpose of the service is worship - part and parcel of christianity is tolerance and about little children coming unto him. The Vicar is wrong to say what he has said to you and to not put the others who complain in their place.

Having said that it should be quiet activities where possible, try talking through what is happening in church, try books with bible stories. Suggest the vicar extends the Sunday school, take it in turns to attend services or look after them in the other room. There needs to be tolerance shown both ways.

As others say, I've not read the entire thread but this smacks of the incredibly common modern phenomenon of parents allowing their children to roam feral in inappropriate places and then wonder why people get fucked off

I agree. I was taken to church virtually from birth, every Sunday. There were no distractions, crèches or play areas set up. I had no choice but to sit still and look like I was paying attention. I was bored out of my fucking mind, but I think it gave me a good lesson for the rest of my life. There's nothing wrong, in my opinion with learning how to deal with boredom within yourself.

I went to a wedding recently. There were kids flying up and down the aisles, adults taking selfies during the service, a low level hum of people talking amongst themselves all the way through that was so bad, I couldn't hear a word the vicar or the couple said. Granted, a wedding is a one off, but surely, in the OPs case, it's one hour on a Sunday morning that shouldn't be just about her and her kids.

SEN is irrelevant curve ball. No one would consider free reign in a place of worship and quiet contemplation a 'reasonable adjustment' in terms of the law. And I'm in discrimination law.

Hang on - the OP is already contributing to the life of the church and the community whilst working and parenting , as his her dh. Now she's supposed to run anything that needs doing for young dc as well whilst members of the congregation preserve their rights to sit in a quiet church and do nothing? Well they will get their way because the OP and the families like her will go elsewhere and the church family will be the poorer for it.

"The ops children not being able to sit still is not their problem"
Please enlighten me, but how on earth do you get a 1 year old to sit still.
Either all these child intolerant moaners and complainers have short memories or themselves and their children must have perfect as children.

No ghost, but they probably DID refrain from reading aloud through the sermon, prevented their DC from running up and down aisles, used creche facilities and took their DC out as appropriate.

I used to attend a church with a higher-than-average number of children and adults with SN, and can honestly say I have never seen a child running about, throwing and catching a toy during service. I appreciate that OP wants her children to grow up in the church, and participate - but how far is a child racing about and playing catch actually participating in the responses etc, as OP says?

It wouldn't bother me if children run about in church - but it's something in over 40 years of church going I have never seen. And there's a huge difference to someone with SN going a bit free range and wandering up to the pulpit with the priest etc and someone racing around, in all honesty. My particular favourite at my previous church was a young man who used to heckle the priest during the sermon - the priest was big on audience participation, and never seemed to learn But no-one in the congregation groaned or tutted at the young man's parents - and this was in a very rural, very traditional congregation, where the average age was probably around 75. So for OP's children to excite comment, I do feel that they must have been very noticeable, I am afraid.

My only solution for when they need to race about would be to take them to the churchyard to work off steam for a few minutes.

I haven't read the full thread but this is something I have been considering as I have taken my two very young children to church to support my partner's beliefs.
As it was all fairly new to me, I was very observant of folk's behaviours. I was struck by some people being very unwelcoming to us as a young family having to sit separately (arrived at last minute due to usual nappy explosion / feed....) and to a very elderly couple who clearly needed seats. I was shocked that it took a while of many folk averting their eyes (they weren't in quiet contemplation I'm afraid, they were chatting) until someone helped this couple and offered to help us too.
Equally there are some very kind and welcoming people there.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that it takes all sorts and perhaps your vicar has had his ear bent by someone very vocal. In my mind church is for all, children and children and it is nigh on impossible for them to sit still in a long service.

A crèche would be wonderful but would rely on someone having the time and energy to coordinate it and this is unlikely to be parents of young children.

if he has additional needs they will need to make reasonable adjustments...

the point is, what is reasonable? you need to discuss this with the pcc. they can not expect sitting still throughout an hours service, but there is a sort of limit on behaviour.

you are lucky that there are two of you to tag team. you may need to tag team for a bit and teach him appropriate behaviour a little bit at a time. (we are still mastering no spitting, no dropping bits of food deliberately, though we seem to have mastered the no throwing stuff in church rule and no shoes on the furniture)

ds was distracted by food. food is the main way we regulate his behaviour in church. he also has a box of toys. it helps that he has a diagnosis so they have to make reasonable adjustments.

families like her will go elsewhere and the church family will be the poorer for it

I strongly suspect they won't feel at all impoverished if the OP and her children were to move elsewhere.

I think YABU. I don't think most people would mind a little low level noise/disruption or the occasional loud outburst of crying. But a child running around and throwing a toy around?? No, that is something I would expect the parents to stop immediately - if that means one of you taking him out of church until he settles then so be it.

"People have weird ideas of what Sunday church services should be like. "

It's not weird to want to be able to hear the service. It's just basic. I don't mind when babies start making a noise and then the parent takes them outside for a bit, but I can't stand it when parents do nothing and the children are noisy for a long time. What is the point in my being there let alone the parent? What is the point in very small children being at a service they're not listening to and can't understand?

I know I'll get 'Jesus said let the little children come to me'. but the didn't say 'let them ruin the service for everyone else'.

YANBU and I find this really depressing actually. It's the same thing as child free flights and child free hotels and this and that, how are children supposed to learn to behave in a given situation if they are tidied away somewhere?

We learned at home, we learned at meals and other events at home and at the homes of relatives, and at nursery school, etc., to behave in a civilized manner, to not be disruptive to others and so on. It's not fair to take your kids out to "practice" on others in restaurants, on airline flights and certainly in church if you are not willing to put in the time at home to show them how to sit quietly, speak quietly, occupy themselves with quiet activities, to pay attention to others who are speaking, eat neatly, etc.

As to the OP, YABVU. And clearly underestimating the annoyance factor to others. A bit of squirming in the seat is one thing, running around throwing and playing during a church service is beyond the pale. Are you not teaching your children consideration for others ? It sounds like none of you are getting much out of the service which is probably why the vicar approached you. I'd take heed instead of insisting he is the one in the wrong. Church is a solemn and sober occasion for many people and it's beyond rude to disrupt that atmosphere especially in an historic venue. Surely there is some singalong type family church that could accommodate your needs?

SirChenjin - I think that's one of the nastiest posts I've seen on here for some time? Were you aiming to be vile or was it an accident?

Do you? Oh well, never mind

"Perhaps the moaners at church could offer to help organise a creche?"

The last time I went to a church with a creche, they made it clear they only wanted mums (not even dads!) with recent experience of small children. As a person with little experience of very young children I wouldn't have been welcome which I understand perfectly.