Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

Obviously, Jesus would want people in his church. All people, regardless of their age, or needs. Learning about His teaching, in the best way they were able.
In practice, this means, in our modern world where people generally don't (quite rightly, I think) want to subjugate their children into total silence, that Christians organise things like family service, Sunday school, Messy Church etc, where children have an opportunity to explore faith without undue restrictions on their behaviour.
(I say, fresh from a Messy Church, which was fantastic, but there was tonnes of running around on the part of the children. They all sat and listened very well to the short talk and prayer though.).
I do believe OP (is she still here?) would be better off sourcing services that better met her family's needs. At the same time, it is not on, in my opinion, for Christians to have a go at other Christians for spoiling their worship due to their age/needs. Come on, it's basic, isn't it? We're all welcome at His table?

Arkwright just trying to provide context and support for the OP.

I find that when I take my toddler to church (once a month for a specific 'all age' service) I am choosing between two evils - noise or movement.

So he will be happy to roam around the church with me in tow. he will approach the vicar, go up and down small steps repeatedly, become fascinated for short periods by the music or the windows. This is distracting, but it is generally SILENT

He will sit in the pews for short periods, especially if bribed with lots of toys and food. But generally this is much NOISIER.

I choose the former because I think of the two it is less disruptive.

I have spoken to the vicar about it and all i get from him and others are positive comments "this is what this service is about" etc.

We have a similar problem at our church with a family who have four children under ten. These kids constantly run around the church, up and down the aisles, trying to involve other children whose parents are trying to engage them in sitting still. They are not particularly noisy but the constant motion is hugely distracting to both the congregation and the vicar.

Their parents do absolutely nothing to even try and keep them still. Mum thinks they are also members of the congregation and it's unfair to make them sit still (even though most of the other children manage it for the half hour they are in church). Whereas most of the other children who attend are expected and encouraged by their parents to sit down (not necessarily in silence) and participate in the service

I know the vicar has very reluctantly spoken to her after quite a while of this going on, as the last thing he wants to do is make anyone feel unwelcome.

In my experience, parish members will say positive things to you, as they don't want to discourage you from coming, they may understand that looking after kids is hard and they are generally nice people; but, that doesn't mean that they don't find noisy, disruptive children distracting and would rather they were encouraged to behave differently.

Sounds like you need to have a chat with your vicar. He needs to be aware of how things are from your side, especially that your eldest may have sn. You need to ask what is acceptable behaviour. If there is middle ground then stay. If not leave.

In my church service your children would be welcome. We have early morning and evening services which don't have children, but mid morning Sunday services have children and they are loved whether they are noisy and disruptive or well-behaved or somewhere in between.

Here are things that I think help:
We sit in the front pew so the children can see, children's talk where all children sit at the front, during songs they stand on the book rest of the pew in front, having a role like ringing the bell before church or taking the collection.

We are short of volunteers so I do Sunday school but on a rota so once a month. I'd rather not but it needs to be done and I want it to be good for my children. Could you do the odd week?

YANBU regarding your dc2, YABVU regarding dc1. I agree with the comment about modern parenting allowing feral behaviour. Whether your dc1 has SN or not you have a responsibility to modulate their behaviour in a location you choose to attend where other attendees are trying to concentrate. The world does not owe you space to let your dc1 run wild. Sorry but this annoys me no end, if nice middle class mummies let their kids run free it's laissez-fair parenting, if a working class mum does it she's a lazy cow. Crap parenting is crap parenting. Everyone is so keen on their rights these days- your right to attend that church, your dc1's right to distract the congregation- what about the responsibilities that come with those rights? Your family is one small part of that church community, they don't have to accommodate your desires when you're quite clearly disregarding theirs.

I don't really remember "Love thy Neighbour...but only for a few weeks" or

"suffer little children, and forbid them not to come unto me...unless of course they are being too noisy"

or "Turn the other cheek...unless their children are being annoying"

Can you organise a very unofficial Sunday school on the non-Sunday school (which may be just you / your husband with your son). 15 minutes in church, 30 minutes in "Sunday school" singing "he's got the whole world in his hands" while doing star jumps to use up some energy, another 15 minutes in church may be easier for all of you than trying and failing to make him last the full hour.

Wanted to add, no one expects small children to be bolted silently to a pew for the length of a service but you're doing nothing to support your dc1 through the service. Do you expect their school to allow him to freely wander and throw?

I had a wandered. Our church was tolerant. Now DS sits beautifully through the whole service.

I think if he'd learned that church wasn't for him, or was awful, it would have been a shame, as aged 7 he is really engaged, even on weeks with no Sunday School.

*wanderer

missscarlett we have wanderers, we have squeakers, we have all the normal child behaviours in our Mass. We don't have children throwing things while their parents ignore the discomfort of the congregation, it's vastly different.

"missscarlett we have wanderers, we have squeakers, we have all the normal child behaviours in our Mass. We don't have children throwing things while their parents ignore the discomfort of the congregation, it's vastly different."

Absolutely this. If the behaviour would be out of place for a Reception child in an average primary school assembly, it is probably out of place for a 4 year old in church. And the OP has the advantage of a 1:1 child ratio, whereas the teacher in assembly is dealing with up to 30.

It's clear that some people aren't reading the op's replies. Her children are running around in the area that is cordoned off specifically for children. They are not running around in the main church area!!!

Agree with the poster who says it is difficult to work out who is being unreasonable without truly knowing how noisy your kids are being. You don't think they are being that disruptive, yet someone does as there have been complaints.

I have two dd's - age 5 and 2. We go to church occasionally and both of them sit in the pews for most of the service. Dd2 has to be fed constantly and we take crayons and paper. Age 1, she would have been harder to placate I imagine.

However, at our church there is a crèche which starts about 15 minutes into the service. Kids can be left with the crèche leaders during this time and there are lots of toys to play with in a room at the back of the church.

I think the crèche is in recognition of the fact that young kids can't sit quietly for any length of time. If a church does not provide similar then they have to accept that there will be noise and distraction from children.

I agree with the op that there is no point in them going if she regularly has to leave the service and go outside - that's ok at a special service, christening or wedding but is a waste of the op's time if it is constantly.

Your vicar has a responsibility to try and work this out though. What does he want you to do? I think you need to speak to him to find out more about the complaints. Does he really want to lose a family who have been going for 12 years?

Have you tried different things for dc1 op? Crayons? iPad? Food? Stickers?

I am coming back on once and then I am hiding this thread because even without it the idea of leaving our beloved church of 12 years has me in bits.
Our DC1 is not yet in school. We would love to have any problems in hand before starting school hence the investigations now.

DH does not want to leave the church, we believe that CHURCH is for under 5s, not being relegated to another room, not sitting with a book or iPad or game when older (they won't do that now but I see older children sitting in the service as if they weren't there -that seems pointless) - actual church. DC1 loves listening for the bells and bouncing around to organ music and saying amen. DC2 loves pretending to sing to the hymns. We also both thought having an area with toys for children to play meant they could play...

As a PP said there are stages when it's either running around or noise. We had one that was running up and down the aisles, or tantrums. We did a lot of running up and down the aisles but DC1 is too old for that to amuse now. Currently it's varied activity, mostly self chosen, time limit on each, or tantrums. We DO have strategies which include saving the short sitting down bit for the sermon.

We used to go to a church where there was a loudspeaker in the 'children's room',so parents could still hear the service.Would this work in your church?

OP, I think you should take your cues from your son here. As well as the vicar.

When DS was 4 church service just wasn't for him. Like your DS, he needed to move around and throw stuff. And a mass is just not the right place to do that. So we stopped going to the church and went to the park instead.

We would visit the church when there was nothing else going on and DS could be freer and ask all of his questions without disturbing (too much) worshippers. When I wanted to go to mass, I would take DS to the park for an hour before.

Now he is old enough to attend Children's Liturgy. I can concentrate, he likes being with other people and we have interesting conversations afterwards.

But he still has difficulty doing a "full" service. So we don't go when there is nothing on for children.

You can familiarise your DCs with the church, but I think you should do it with sensitivity to their needs and the needs of the rest of the congregation.

DH does not want to leave the church, we believe that CHURCH is for under 5s, not being relegated to another room, not sitting with a book or iPad or game when older (they won't do that now but I see older children sitting in the service as if they weren't there -that seems pointless) - actual church.

That sounds really great in theory, but the trouble is a lot of under fives don't find listening to a sermon aimed at adults interesting, and most adults would find a service suitable for under fives not very helpful for growing as a Christian. At our church the kids stay in for the start and then leave for separate teaching-not because they aren't wanted or aren't part of the congregation but because it works out better for everybody. They certainly wouldn't feel like they've been relegated to another room-they love it.

I think you and your dh need a heart to heart with the vicar, and hopefully you can talk about why you're upset (the vicar could certainly have been more tactful) and talk about how you might deal with the situation as a church. Really good luck with it.

DH does not want to leave the church, we believe that CHURCH is for under 5s, not being relegated to another room

But your children are not getting anything from being in church, and they are stopping a swathe of people who could get something from it, from doing so.can you not understand how selfish that is?

"I don't remember Jesus's "Don't indulge your children" sermon - do enlighten me as to which book it resides in..."

Would it have been necessary in year zero Palestine? When people generally had very large families. Do you think children were indulged as they are now?

"I'm surprised at the pasting the OP is getting from some responses. I would have thought it was up to the community as a whole to work out how parents with young children can be included in services"

The way it works in many places is that if there is no creche/Sunday School, children making too much noise are to be taken outside until they calm down so the solution is there, just that OP refuses to use it.

Matthew 19 v13-14: Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

You might want to ask the vicar what he thinks of this verse. It seems pretty clear to me.

Dissapointed that you have ignored all our suggestions!

"But your children are not getting anything from being in church, and they are stopping a swathe of people who could get something from it,"

Hit the nail on the head Marniasmum.

chilly most posters are saying it's great for kids to be part of the church congregation but that doesn't necessarily mean everybody being physically in the same room for the whole time.

Chillycurtains he didn't say 'let the little children run around and make a noise and bother everyone and don't try to do anything about it'. Nobody is saying little children shouldn't have a relationship with Jesus.