Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

I'm not sure tbh. We got to both catholic and C of E services and the catholic ones tend to be a bit more chaotic (at our local church) and no-one really notices children being naughty whereas we have had a few hard stares at the C of E church - which was a lot quieter in all senses.

SoupDragon, maybe you and your peers weren't expected to behave in church at 1 year old, and maybe you didn't have learning difficulties?

Yes we were expected to behave. We certainly weren't expected to be running up and down.

The "learning difficulties" are a red herring. Churches are not somewhat you are meant to be running up and down in. If children can't behave, you take them out, you don't expect the rest of the congregation to put up with it. This applies to anywhere really. It's called having good manners.

I had a "very lively" child who people would assume had ADHD from the way he behaved. If he could not behave appropriately for his surroundings I removed him. Quite straightforward really, even with siblings involved and no other adult.

If your children can't behave appropriately, somewhere, you don't take them.

It is clear the OP does not want to make any kind of adjustments to ensure her children do not annoy other church goers.

It's quite funny that some of the snarkiest comments on this thread towards those who think the OP should show a little bit of respect to the fellow worshippers in her church are coming from soi-disant Christians quoting the Word at others....some of whom would, and indeed are, the first to jump onto restaurant/cinema/softplay/Asda/school play threads commenting on the unacceptable behaviour of other people's children....now't so queer as folk.

Our church service on a Sunday morning is specifically for children, they get the front pews and any adults are expected to stand at the back if there are any children without a place. They are then however very much expected to sit still and behave and follow the service and are soon stopped if the ipad mini or nintendo comes out. Really little ones aren't stopped from moving around, but the priest stops and asks any parent to come and sweep them up if they start disturbing either the service or other children.

Expecting someone disabled to to leave somewhere because they cannot behave appropriately could be discrimination. That applies to disabled children too. (This is general, I am not talking about the op's child).

I think that everyone saying that OP should keep children home until they are old enough to sit for an entire service is missing the point that the church serves the community, and worshipping in church, as part of the congregation, you are joining the community - it's silly to exclude members of the community because of their age or developmental stage.

There is a woman in our congregation in her golden years who sometimes gets disorientated and starts to talk loudly to the people around her during the service. No one would dream of saying that she's tool old and disruptive to come to church, or that she should sequester herself in a different part of the church for everyone else's peace of worship. The same applies to kids - they are part of the community and the community needs to remember that once, they too were children, and probably made more noise than they are remembering...

I can't be ars*d t read the full post so will answer the original OP question.

We have a separate area (the church hall) for the children to attend childrens church (sunday school as it was when I was a kid)

They start off in the main church, theres a hymn and a bit of praise, and then we hot foot it/leave with the children, who then do a topic and a craft based around it. Towards the end of the service the children are called back into the church to stand at the front and show off their work to the congregation and the choir.

If the adults want to stay with the children at childrens church they can, but if they are comfortable with it they can leave the children who are supervised by any adults at childrens church that day (usually the same ones) and attend the adult service themselves.

This works pretty well. The church is pretty welcoming and our vicar (whose been here for nearly 9 years) has 3 kids himself so he has no problem with kids in the church and there is even a 'play area' set up at the back in case childrens church isn't on.

veryseriousgirl - I think this is true up to a point but my son saying very loudly "I don't want to sit here, it's boring" was a sign that he really wasn't getting much out of the experience (and at the same time making things stressful for others). I will try again when he is a bit older.

We were in the side room (choir vestry) when we got chucked out. Ds wasn't running around or anything.

Church people are some of the most intolerant people I've ever encountered

Sorry not read much of the thread.

In my church we have bags of toys and books at the back which children are encouraged to take to their pews and play/read/draw.

My 2 year old likes to wander up and down and wave at the congregation. She also takes great pleasure in being a permanent fixture for the communion.

Never ever have I been told to keep her quiet. In fact I told someone it was my intention to start putting her in Sunday school from the summer and had a flock of congregationers saying how sad they'd be when she wasn't around to entertain them.

The difference for us is our vicar is very family orientated. He wants to reduce the average age of the congregation (probably about 105 ) and is really keen to get more children in. He particularly likes to do his sermon with a squirming baby in his arms.

OP I'd give it a few more chances - maybe even offer some changes to the way children are included in the service. If it doesn't get better though I'd look at different churches.

Sorry about that hiccup. Haven't read the whole thread but do get sick of people thinking that everyone in the plane, cinema,restaurant etc. is intolerant because they don't love hearing your kids making a noise. Your right to attend doesn't trump everyone else's.

YANBU.

The vicar and congregation should stop judging you. I'd be very annoyed if I saw a parent of young children being spoken to like that by a vicar.

Hi, not read the whole thread, but here are my thoughts:
My church, and most I have been to, have designated family services at certain points during the month. At these, there will be a sermon that is more child friendly and interactive; there will often be themed crafts, or at least colouring, available after and sometimes during the service. At these, it's accepted that some dc may run around at some points, make some noise etc. Everyone would be a bit If anyone complained.
There are also services, like Evensong or 8:30 spoken communion, which are much more aimed at adults, and, while I'd hope no one would comment rudely to someone who had a child with them who made noise, people generally wouldn't bring children at all, so it just wouldn't come up.
Couples I know who both want to attend church every week and have dc, seem to shop around the benefice, as there is a family service on somewhere local every Sunday.
So, I think YANBU, but it might be worth considering whether there are services your children might enjoy more, and you might feel more relaxed in? I do think your vicar sounds unhelpful though. "Something must be done" almost sounds a little threatening!

Something had to be done.

Either - they run Sunday School in holidays too. (I cannot comprehend why churches don't. If children are only expected to attend church when there is a Sunday school then they are not being expected to attend every week. Our church does not run Sunday school either side of half term so instead of running for 36 weeks.)

Or - you join another church.

A church I used to go to had a young couple become new members. It was a very old congregation so a young couple joining was the answer to our hopes and prayers. They got married in the church, had a baby, everyone was pleased. How nice to have young families as part of the congregation after all these years! The husband joined the PCC, the wife helped out with other things. The baby became a toddler and started to explore the church. He would wander round in the boring bits and once wobbled the lectern slightly and undangerously. After a discussion at the PCC when the husband wasn't there, they were quietly asked to control him as "people were worried he might get hurt." They read the subtext clearly and stopped coming. So that was that. Oh well done Church !

Our church has all the children in for the first 10 minutes (welcome, notices, couple of songs) then they go to different groups, from crèche up to groups for teens. The groups are led by volunteers on a rota, each person helps once a month, some parents volunteer but also a lot of older members who see this as a service to the youngsters and their parents who then get to sit and have some peace in the main service. It can be a bit rowdy when all the children are there, a bit of noise is fine, but if a child is wailing the expectation would be you'd take them out (there is a glassed off area at the back where you can still see/hear the service) and running about would not be acceptable. It's about respecting everybody's need to focus on the service. I wouldn't even attempt to attend a service with my children where they needed to be quiet and still for an hour. If the vicar can't find a way to resolve this I'd suggest you find another church that does cater for children during the main service, or runs something like messy church which is entirely aimed at children. I think it's very shortsighted of a church not to cater for young families, but there are plenty that do. Your children are going to need some sort of kids/youth ministry for the next 10/15 yrs, why would you stay somewhere they are not catered for?

This morning is not the start and the end of it all, it's quite clearly been an issue for more than one service.

Im cringing for the op, her children were disrupting everyone sufficiently for someone to have to point it out in the middle of the service yet the op disingenuously pretends to have no idea what they mean and ignores the polite heads up leaving the priest to have to point the issue out to the embarrassment of everyone involved (except possibly the op).The children were not as quiet as you imagine op and they were ruining the service for others.

"DC1 was running around"

This isn't on. And sitting there allowing it will understandably annoy people.

The other thing to bear in mind is that you only see other people's children sitting quietly at church because the ones with children who won't sit quietly have given up coming

I think you should talk properly to the vicar. You seem really angry with him because he had a word with you 'something must be done'. He will not want to lose you as members of the church - maybe by talking to him as opposed to just getting cross on here you may find a workable solution. And if he is too difficult move churches.

I grew up in a vicarage - spent my life in a church and learnt pretty quickly to be quiet. However when I had my own children, they were not as compliant as I was so I had to go into the glassed off room, or took them out. Or left them with my husband so I could worship. I had to find a middle ground which was not perfect - but eventually would work out.

I hope you can find a solution but it may mean a little compromise and understanding of both sides of the argument. Good luck.

Hi I confess to also not reading whole thread this time. As a practicing Christian your experience really makes me sad. It's also one of the reasons I don't take my 3 kids to local cofe. We have tended to head to the big noisy evangelical churches where you don't notice the sound of kids as everything else is loud! However it's a sacrifice as we are quieter in our worship. But these are the places catering for families. Sad times. The one good Anglican church had 10 mins for kids in main service then they went out for Sunday school which we ran on a rota. Hope it sorts out op. You have my sympathies.

I just think that your desire to attend church with your dc does not trump those who want to attend and not be disturbed by your dc. It seems you want it all on yiur terms and bugger anyone else. It's not on that kids are running around disturbing other church goers, so unfortunately i think YABU.

The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively".

Would they also say "something has to be done" if an adult with SN wasn't quiet in the service?

Perhaps the moaners at church could offer to help organise a creche?