Or is the vicar? Noisy DCs in church

[drspouse]

Background so as not to drip feed, bear with me as this is horrendously long: we go to a fairly naice church in a large historic building, locally there is a sought after church secondary school but none of the church primary schools are over subscribed. We've been going to this church for 12 years and we have two DC, aged 4 and 1. The 4yo is being investigated for mild SN and has always, always been very "lively". DC2 is walking.

The church knows us. Current vicar has been there about as long as our DC1 and baptised both of them. Church has a side chapel which is open to the rest of the pews where there are baby/toddler toys, a mat to play on. One other family (who are new to the country and have a 10 month old) use this baby play area every week.

The 4yo goes to Sunday School in term time, one of us goes with him, as we take it in turns and it doesn't last the whole service, both of us get some time during the service actually in the church. He's just starting to be able to stay in for 10 minutes on his own. DC2 is still lively and, yes, noisy in the side chapel. The other regular family's baby isn't walking yet. When smaller, both he and our DC2 could be quietened by feeding or carrying around.

Because of the pressure for secondary admission, most of the families that come have primary aged children. I can think of a couple of other families who are regulars with young DCs e.g. one Sunday School teacher has an 18 month old but I think she is restrained sat with them on non-Sunday School weeks not in the side chapel.

Today was the first weekend of half term, no Sunday school, there were 2 other children at church apart from our "baby chapel" group, maybe 6 and 8, who were using a construction toy in the side chapel for part of the time. Our DC1 was running around, fairly quietly, but was also throwing a small, soft, non-dangerous teddy up and down and catching it or running to get it. Frankly the only way to stop this would have been to physically restrain DC1 leading to shouting, screaming and kicking. This could be seen from the main church. DC2 was very excited by this and was squeaking, and also as a new walker fell over 2 or 3 times and cried, and was cuddled, and then was quiet.

Half way through someone came in and said "did we know the other room was open, we could go there if we wished". We declined and said no, we wouldn't, because where would be the point in being at church if we were not in the church? we might as well stay home. This is the first time in four years anyone has said anything, and I was massively surprised. It's definitely not the first time we were noisy!

The vicar stopped me on the way out and repeated that something had to be done, that it was distracting, people had complained, and that it was "exciting the other children" (the ones quietly using a construction toy? or the 10 month old who was quiet?) I said that the answer was not for us to go out because there was no point in us going to church if we couldn't be IN church. He repeated that "something must be done".

How does your church run this? Can you give us any ideas for suggestions? We want to bring this up and make some constructive suggestions (though frankly if the church can't put up with noise, it can't put up with children, and it will be left with definitely nobody under 5 and probably nobody under 50).

The historic fabric means a glassed off area is not possible (and I'd feel massively excluded in an aquarium every week!). There's only one area out of the church where smaller children could play (so they couldn't run a creche at the same time as Sunday School). We'd also feel pretty excluded if we couldn't go on non-Sunday School weeks (which is probably 15-20 weeks of the year), and I wouldn't bother if we had to be in an area with "piped church", also. It's not a "praise band" church where listening through an audio or video link gets you the flavour of church, it's a trad but (we thought) friendly church with old fashioned liturgy.

We had about a dozen children aged 0-5 in our traditional church service this morning. Apart from occasional noise from the toddlers, you wouldn't have known they were there. They stay on or very close to their chairs and do quiet activities so as not to disturb the other worshipers. If a child starts making a lot of noise, then a parent takes them out to a separate room where the service is relayed through speakers, and brings them back into the service after a while. Our Sunday School is at a completely different time of day so that nobody misses the service.

That's not to say that it is easy. There have been times when I have had to literally drag my autistic son out of the service kicking and screaming, and despaired of ever getting him to sit quietly. It requires clear expectations and lots of practice, but sooner or later (sooner for my daughter who very rarely needed to be taken out, later for my son) children are capable of sitting quietly through a church service without distracting others.

It sounds like you have underestimated just how disruptive you and the kids are.

People have to expect a certain amount of noise sometimes from children unless they are to be banned altogether from churches. What isn't acceptable is children running rioting and yelling and throwing toys. That is just rude and inconsiderate of other people who might as well stay at home than attend what you've turned into a soft play area.

The OP however has made it clear that a happy clappy or less formal church isn't what she's looking for
That is why in my earlier post I said "Church is not just about you". The others in the congregation may have chosen that liturgical service because of the traditional repetition and contemplation so should they all have to compromise to accommodate the OP when she does not seem to want to do the same?

FWIW I grew up in a traditional parish with intoned services so always went to the same when I left home. Maybe I was just lucky but my DCs understood from an early age that the expectation was to be quiet and still in church and behaved most of the time (they were taken out when they didn't) When they were teenagers they were becoming bored with the tradition so didn't enjoy it as I did and, after discussion with other families locally, we discovered our local Baptist church had a thriving youth section. We tried there and, despite my initial reservations, found we loved the informality and the joyousness of it. Both DCs enjoyed the Youth Church and Youth Club not to mention the church was more vibrant due to the numbers of children and teenagers attending (although I have to say running and throwing of toys would not be generally accepted there either).

We have always been accepted as a family to worship at our local Church. We have never allowed our children to run around throwing teddies, that may be the difference? People who go to Church go to worship. They don't want to listen to unruly children shrieking and running around

Our school take the children to church including the reception children once a month. It lasts well over an hour. They are quiet and sit still as this is what is expected of them.

Most churches do not have separate side rooms/chapels from my experience. The children sit with their parents in the benches and be quiet.

Single mum, 2 children with disabilities. We've tried attending a few churches locally,but people were very intolerant. I used to be very involved in the church prior to having children. Now we can't even attend. It's frustrating, and I feel that my children are missing out on so many experiences that I had growing up because of this.

We've got a few more churches in the general area still to try though. I'd like to think at some point we'll find one that is accepting.

'People go to church to worship, to be calm, to find peace, to get comfort, to be meditative, and to deal with incredibly hard life events like bereavement and illness, as well as every other trauma you can think of. And cope with everyday stuff. That's what church is for, and that's what they have come to get. '

Ummm no, actually. That's not what church is for. It's not some sort of super-spiritual counselling service. Most believers will find attending church with other believers to be a source of support and encouragement but it's to God, not church, that we look for strength and salvation and believe it or not that's a 7 day a week activity.

I do wish all the apparent churchgoers lining up to declare how silent their dc are at church would just take a leaf from their dc's book and wrap up tbh. You should be ashamed of yourselves. Our sister in Christ is upset, is questioning how she can carry on attending church and you're all just standing there with your rocks to chuck. Get a grip!

Your child should not be running around in church during a service, generally old fashioned church goers (and some more modern ones) will not like it. That crosses the "line". If he wants to run around and you can't persuade him otherwise, then he should be doing it outside and that means one of you will need to go out with him and forego the rest of the service out of consideration for the others. Sorry, that's being a parent for you. Or maybe you don't go on the days they don't have the Sunday school.
If you can get him to behave within so called acceptable limits like not running around and sitting quietly then I don't think you'll have a problem from the rest of the congregation. I used to take books and favourite toys for these moments and there was a lot of talk beforehand of being good in Gods house. Bribery was still needed though and strict control of noise levels. I appreciate it is complicated by the possible SN, but I'm not sure that will wash with the vicar and the ones in the congregation who complained.

Children are children. They run and play regardless of where they are. Yes a lot of people would want children to sit like little robots but as we all know with a 4 and 1 year old. That aint going to happen, and as for a 10 month old sitting being quiet. I'm sorry but I don't believe it. No 10 month old past present or future is going to sit up bolt right for a whole church service. I just wouldn't happen.
I know what God would rather have a bunch of noisy children than an empty church and a family leaving the parish, after all everyone young old rich poor are more than welcome in church.

We go every week and sit in one of the "aquariums" :o It's not like being at home at all! There are other people in there and we can see and hear everything that's going on, and DS1 can nip out for the children's church, etc.

I think a crèche is a good idea. If I were you I'd go and talk to the vicar honestly, but go in a spirit to compromise, not "I'm so hurt and I'm right and you're awful."

Sorry you've had a rough time. I get a lot of comfort from church and would feel awful if there were a problem.

IAmPissed, what depresses me about this thread is not OP but the number of churchgoers who won't tolerate small children being small children, especially when one has learning difficulties, even when said children are out of sight in a partly partitioned off side chapel. OP could certainly be forgiven for thinking that if this is christian loving kindness in action, she wants none of it.

When my ds's special school goes to church there are some children wandering about and some are being noisy throughout the service. The aim is that they will learn to sit quietly but it is understood that some at least yet, cannot do this.

Northernlurker - round of applause. You are right. What is a church that is just for people that fit into nice neat boxes, who can behave at all times just as expected? Is it a church or a club or clique? Who are we to reject those whom God has accepted, loves and has redeemed? Whether that person is a young child, a person with learning difficulties, a person with emotional problems or an elderly person with dementia? A church that rejects and judges does not reflect Christ and is not one I wish to attend. I hope the members enjoy their little social club though. A member of our church (adult) with profound learning disabilities decided to do an impromptu dance at the front of church for the duration of a worship song recently. I thought it was a beautiful thing.

I suggest everybody has a read of this and thinks about the things the OP has said and which have been dismissed.

OP, you posted in AIBU....so people are going to be rather blunt.

Grunted The OP says that the main church could see her son throwing and catching the bear, so that's the movement that could be distracting.

I did also make a few suggestions for things that could keep her DCs still, taking into account that one may have SN. If there is no way to keep them still, the answer may be to not have them in church.

It's difficult because the op clearly wants her children there, but if the rest of the congregation don't want them running around, there has to be a compromise or they don't come.

The churches around here are perfectly welcoming to children but it's expected that if they can't sit still, they get taken out. Some noise is fine, running around isn't. I don't think it would be in many places of worship.

BillSykes to be fair if OP (who I do accept is being a bit U not using the lovely aquarium etc or is she?!) reading aloud the prayer books quietly (which I assume she is doing) during the sermon sounds fine to me.

Wandering round chapel and taking a few small steps yes I agree taking a child for a wander and practising steps should be left to a park, home etc... Only because with churches no. 1 they're old with lots of things to touch and potentially break and sharp edges/stone floor to trip and fall on (please correct me OP if church isn't like this).

The enjoyment during church should be the ceremony, communion, singing, prayer books and the whole experience. You should be able to tailor that to the child and if not then crèche is better. Also why should other celebrants have to go at another time to avoid bumping into families?!

I was taken to church from about 4-5 onwards with my brother who was possibly 3, we had to be quiet, sing, all in a freezing cold church. None of this keeping children happy. Then again I am from a different era. My brother was also 'spirited' (no SN etc just lively and naughty) even he behaved in church.

This is all really interesting to read. As a Catholic family it's expected that you will all go to church every week - it would be seen as unfair of the community to expect people to stop going because they have young children. New babies are welcomed as new members of the church family, and the pattern of being there every week means they are used to the rhythm of the mass by the time they're old enough to want to start walking about. Our church has 6 masses on Sunday and there are children at several of them; one is assigned specifically as the family mass, but plenty of us who have been in the parish since before we had kids stay at the main parish sung mass.

There's a group of families who sit in the seats down the side, the children keep each other busy from the smallest to the teens. It's seen as quite acceptable to be whispering to your children so they start to learn the words, or to be showing them a picture book with what the priest is doing. Children rarely sit in the central seats, but they would never be told to go to a different room - I've taken the DDs out when they were being troublesome as 2 or 3 year olds, but for the very reason that they have been going since they were tiny, they know that there are some parts (eg when the grown-ups kneel down) that it's particualrly important to try and be quiet. If they can see what the priest is doing it really helps. I guess it also helps that there's plenty of congregational involvement anyway, so plenty to join in with.

Ironically, the child people might consider most disruptive at our church is a little boy of 1.5, he does get up and wander about, make some noise and look at the candles and so forth. Yet he's the youngest of 6, dad sings in the choir, mother is a eucharistic minister and reader and their older children assist at the altar - they've been part of the church since babyhood and will be the generation that keep it alive in the future. There's a teenager who has some quite noisy stims (clapping, clicking her cheeks) and nobody would ask her to leave or frown at her. She's a Catholic, as is the 1.5yr old, and they're expected to come to mass so we accept them and their noises.

I took my DS to Mass from the age of 8 months to about 3 years. The same church I've attended since I was 6. DH didn't come with us, but my mum did. When he was too big for the buggy, he sat in between us. I took quiet books to look at and a couple of teddies to cuddle, but that was it. No snacks; he can go an hour without eating. He came up with me for communion/a blessing. I did my best to keep him as quiet and still as possible and he learnt very quickly. The other members of the congregation could see I did my very best to keep him quiet and were very understanding if he fidgeted a bit or made some noise. Everyone sitting near us made a fuss of him at the sign of peace. I stopped taking him about a year ago (he's 4 now) as we had a lot going on at home, but I intend to start taking him again soon.

Running around or throwing things would not have been tolerated though, and nor should it have been. No-one is expecting children to be completely silent or still for the whole service. There are plenty of hymns or parts where there's a chance for children to stand up and sing etc. I think most people expect parents to at least try to teach their children what is acceptable behaviour in church and what isn't.

Fwiw, my friend who attends the same church has a brother with severe autism. He attended church from birth until he moved into assisted living, aged 18. There were weeks when he struggled to sit still or when he screeched or jumped. No-one batted an eyelid but his mum or dad always took him out into the narthex (or "aquarium") to calm down.

Our church has a lot of children in the congregation, all of whom are welcome. The priest will thank them for coming every week, and thank their parents for bringing them. But I've honestly never seen anyone let their children run up and down or throw anything.

You've had lots of reasonable suggestions on here OP, but you seem to think that your children are behaving just fine as they are. I would ask what your children are getting out of their attendance at church when you seem to be having to spend the entire time distracting them so that they don't have tantrums?

Our church has 6 masses on Sunday I think there is your answer! At your church, people can more or less avoid children if they want to whereas at a lot of C of E churches there is only one service and people can get huffy at it being disturbed.

Allegretto - is it partly that C of E attendance is more 'optional' ( wrong word but YKWIM) so it's seen as ok to suggest that people don't go for various reasons? Whereas because Catholics have to go, there's a form of pressure on the whole congregation to be more accomodating?