AIBU to send my kids to a faith school when I don't buy into the ethos?

[Jesabel]

We are moving house soon and looking for a new school for my 2 and 5 year olds. We basically have two choices - one is a community infant school, one is a Catholic primary school.

For various reasons I think the primary school would be the better choice, however we are atheists and actually anti-religion rather than neutral on it.

AIBU to send my kids to a Catholic school anyway?

Micah it will depend on the Diocese. In our's, Sacrament preparation is shared between home, school and church.

x2boys Guess what? I'm not in favour of grammar schools, either! Whodathunkit?

It's not true to say people not complain about grammar schools - of course they do, that's why the majority were abolished.

If you send to an RC school will you be on mumsnet moaning about religion or will you just see it as 1of those things? When the baptised kids are ready for their first communion your dc will be left out what will you say when they ask ?

I am not Christian. Far from it. My kids go to a Catholic school.

Yo have to visit the schools and make a decision based on the whole ethos of the school and the way they teach religion and the pastoral support they offer. We sent our firstborn there because we experienced a pretty poor attitude towards his needs from the county Primary. The school does of course have regular religious education but then all schools at present have to have a broadly Christian education so I don't think it makes much difference. The charities they support are by and large Catholic but they support others too (today they are fund raising for the NSPCC). They also learn about other world religions and I have not found it to be biased. My experience has been that the overarching themes of the religious side has led to a nurturing environment.

But not all schools are the same. You might get some Catholic schools that are mcuh stricter just as you can have non VA schools that are wonderfully nurturing. All you can do is visit schools and choose the ones you think will best meet your child's needs regardless of the faith or lack of.

I do think it's important for parents to get involved in improving their local school, so maybe I would try to support it in becoming more inclusive.

There's is nothing wrong with sending children to a catholic school as long as you accept that they will be around religion every day. My children have attend catholic primary and secondary school and whilst we are all baptised Catholic and do believe in God we aren't what you'd call practicing Catholics. We only go to church a couple of times a year and to be honest so do most of the parents who's children attend the school, i don't feel bad for this as I don't believe that you have to attend church to keep your beliefs.

At my dd's primary they say a thirty second prayer at registration, lunch time and then again at home time but what harm will ninety seconds of prayer do? They do also do thirty minutes of R.E lessons a day but in most community schools they do an hour and a half per week so it's not just much different. The children are taught about lots of other religions not just Catholicism just like other schools, and they celebrate Easter Christmas etc. I honestly am so happy that I chose the school for my kids, it's got such a good who's, it's extremely friendly and caring and the teachers go out of their way tio make sure each child is looked after. I don't think that they have been brainwashed and I don't tell them they have to believe anything, only that they were baptised into the faith and I chose their school as I wanted them to learn more about it but that it's ultimately up to them if they continue to follow that faith as they get older, which they are happy with.

I would go and look carefully all all three relevant school and carefully assess the religious quota as there is a lot of variation within these things so at a minimum you have an idea what you are letting yourself into in terms of religious practice at both the Catholic and Church of England schools.

If you had to lie and pretend to be religious I'd say you massively ABU and seriously hypercritical too. If its under subscribed and they dont prioritise people of the same faith/regular church go-ers I'd say its fine but you have to accept their terms and teachings.

I have no religion and both of my DC go to a catholic school - it was the best school for them, so why wouldn't I send them there? They are still quite young. It all seems to wash over the older one, but the younger one is really quite into Jesus. Faith is such a personal, individual thing - I am not going to tell my children what to believe.

Our school is a small C of E school, and the head and most of the teachers are committed Christians so it is not a school that just goes through the motions. Not that it is shoved down the kids throats all the time either.

There is much in the Christian ethos of our school that even the atheist parents can get behind - e.g. the active emphasis on living together as a community, on being kind and inclusive, especially to anyone less fortunate than us, recognising that everyone has different talents and that whatever these are they should be encouraged and so on.

We have next to no bullying or behaviour issues and all the parents say how safe and happy their children feel at school. This is not in small part because everyone running the school actively tries to live up to those Christian values. I do think it makes a difference to the "feel" of a place.

I think with Faith schools it is worth getting a sense of what the local vicar connected with the school is like.

At another school local to us, where my cousins went, the local vicar was a fairly extreme evangelical. He used to go into the school and scare the kids with talk of hellfire and a very literal interpretation of "sin" etc.

I say this as the wife of a priest myself (but coming from a very different tradition within the C of E!) - there is no way I would have wanted my children to sit through that. The vicar of the church connected with our school is one with whom (broadly) I am in sympathy.

With the little kids at school we do an after school club which is really just hearing bible stories and doing arts and crafts. But with the juniors (many of whom don't believe in God) we are running a critical/philosophical club where they can test out and debate the questions they have about faith and religion more widely.

I guess my overall point is that there is much within Christian doctrine that everyone can "get behind" - without your having to have belief in God or the resurrection or the virgin birth. Therefore I disagree with anyone who says you are a hypocrite.

I swore the day I left my RC secondary school that I would fight tooth and nail to keep any child of mine out of a faith school. It's also one of the main reasons why I have no particular desire to ever move back to Ireland (90+% of schools are RC and those that aren't are desperately oversubscribed). If my children must have RE class, I would prefer that they learn about many religions, as in "This is what Christians believe, this is what Muslims believe" etc rather than have faith formation-type lessons.

Bumpsadaisie I said she would be a hypocrite (well my spell check changed to hypercrite!) only if she actively lied in her application to the school about her belief's, do you not agree?

There is much in the Christian ethos of our school that even the atheist parents can get behind - e.g. the active emphasis on living together as a community, on being kind and inclusive, especially to anyone less fortunate than us, recognising that everyone has different talents and that whatever these are they should be encouraged and so on.

Excuse me for pointing out the blindingly obvious but that if NOT the "Christian" ethos - when did Christians manage to annex anything kind or thoughtful

Christian ethos is that Christ was the son God who died for us.

I should add that the definition of a humanist is someone who does the right thing even though there's no-one looking.

I went to a religious primary school, I don't remember it being overly religious or rammed down my throat. It taught me about a part of life that I have decided is not for me.

I'm an atheist, and struggle at church weddings and christenings, but I go. So I am respectful of people's beliefs and its likely my schooling has helped me to be understanding and gave me the tools to make my own mind up.

My mum was raised Protestant and my dad Roman Catholic, they don't really go in for any of it either.

If it's a good school then they should go, if you have to do anything hypocritical or against your beliefs then it's likely not a good match.

Kewcumber maybe blindingly obvious to you. I assume you are a humanist? You've just come across as exactly opposite to "kind or thoughtful" which you claim Christians aren't - yet sound deeply bitter and full of resentment yourself.

Yep, resorting to personal insult is the sure sign of a strong argument.

I don't think there's anything unreasonable about wanting to send your children to a good school. My DC go to a catholic school and although they do teach a lot about the catholic faith the head makes it clear that all children are welcome whether of the catholic faith, another faith or no faith.

However, you state that you are 'anti-religion rather than neutral'. In a catholic school your children will be hearing strong pro-religion messages and will probably be expected to take part in religious services periodically and probably prayers several times a day (I think the usual is lunch time grace and an end of the day prayer). If you are really anti-religion I'd be concerned about whether this will make it difficult for you and DC. I think if you're neutral on religion or believe in a different religion it's probably quite easy to tell them that 'that's what some people believe and it's valid for them but not quite what we believe' but harder to give them the message that you think what school tell them is just wrong.

I'd be tempted to ask for a meeting with the head before you make a decision. I can't see anything wrong with letting the school know that you like the school bit are atheist and concerned at how to square the messages DC will get at home with what happens at school. You can also ask about taking DC out of formal mass if this is a problem to you. If he/she is not sympathetic to the issue and/or can't give you answers that you are happy with then I would choose the other school. This way at least you know what you are up against and won't find yourself part way through the year and wanting to move schools because you're not happy with the religious aspects of the teaching.

I'm as atheist as they come. My DCs go to a Catholic school. I don't regret my decision for a minute.

It was actually our closest school before we moved. And as I have health problems it was important for them to be close. There are 2 other schools nearby but I can't pretend I even considered them because I didn't. They are rough and one in particular is quite bad with very poor results. The Catholic school is a lovely school and I like their overall ethos that focuses on respect, caring and discipline. The non religious schools (here) don't seem to have that and I like that. The teachers there are fantastic and I do get involved with helping out at the school.

They do learn about other religions (briefly). It is very religious (more than I realised, I thought it would be similar to the CofE school I went to) but DS who is now a Junior has said he doesn't really believe it. We told him that he has to respect what the school believes because we chose to send him there but at home it's not what we (me and DH) believe. DD is in the infants and accepts it all as gospel at the moment but she will probably form her own conclusions as she gets older like DS has.

There are a growing number of non Catholics at the school so mine aren't a tiny minority anymore. Even some of the Catholic children aren't interested in their Holy Communion. I don't pull mine out of anything, I made the choice to send them, but I won't take them to the termly Mass on a Sunday which is in the church, they do attend Mass in school, though every Friday.

I'd go for it. If your DS has would have to move schools again anyway and it will still be a religious school, then just send them both now to the school you want.

If you choose to go for the Catholic school don't then diss them for the overt religiosity. I sometimes feel awkward with all the icons and imagery of Catholicism as islam is very non visual. But Iv never withdrawn my children from religious services or assemblies because I opted to send them to a school with a christian ethos and it would be contrarian to do so. I tell them as muslims we believe in the Virgin birth, that we believe Jesus was the Messiah, will be resurrected, He was special, holy etc. When they sing hymns I tell them to hum through the parts that conflict with our theology of unity not trinity but that Praising God and/or praising Jesus is fine. I still fondly remember the hymns I used to sing as a child at my old c of e primary so I don't mean for them to feel guilty about enjoying choir or hymns. They get a damn good education and I hope it serves as a springboard for grammar school later on as my own primary education did for me.

I do high intensity training three times a week and I'm finding I get really intense headaches about ten minutes in that last all day or until I take pain killers. I make sure I drink a pint of water before I start but this isn't helping. Anyone got any ideas?

Just ignore that - wrong thread!!

A few kids I know go\went to RC schools and its fine its just common sense to follow the schools routines Im sure not all the Catholic kids pray just pretend anyway

Kewcumber

Excuse me for pointing out the blindingly obvious but that is NOT the "Christian" ethos - when did Christians manage to annex anything kind or thoughtful

No-one is saying that Christians have a monopoly on the kind and thoughtful. Just that it is a part of the ethos (because it is part of our humanity; Christianity is at bottom concerned with what it means and what it can mean to be human. As such it is not so divorced from humanism as you imply).

Christian ethos is that Christ was the son God who died for us.

But there are so many and such varied understandings amongst Christians of what that actually means. What do you understand by it, Kewcumber? Is it the same as what I or the next person make of it?

It is a big assumption to state that Christian ethos = this, or that. There are innumerable teachings in the Bible. We have the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed, but these were written by theologians in the dark Ages and were their best attempt at an expression of their faith then. We still use them now, as part of our tradition, but I doubt they are an adequate expression of their own personal faith for most churchgoers who recite them each Sunday (certainly at our church). Does that make those people hypocrites?

Its simplistic to divide people up into camps - "Christians" and "non-Christians". And therefore simplistic to say that someone sending their child to a faith school who does not in their own mind tick all the boxes is a hypocrite.

I am a committed Christian myself and I doubt I tick all the boxes.

Faith isn't about checking a whole load of "entry requirements" mentally and then saying "yes, I tick all those boxes, I will join the club". Faith is about doing as much as about thinking. It is about responding to a feeling, a calling, an inclination and seeing where the journey takes you, about making a space for the spiritual and reflective in your life. I feel an inclination to go to church. It's important to me, I miss it if I don't do it.

I struggle with some credal elements. Virgin birth? Seems unlikely to me though lovely if true. The resurrection? I find this hard to believe in in a literal sense. But I believe in it and what it represents in other ways; that sacrifice is holy, that suffering is holy and brings you closer to God. I don't know what God is (certainly for me not a bearded man in the sky) - something along the lines of "that which is transcendent".

Despite all this, my faith is VERY important to me.

Does this make me a "false" Christian, or a hypocrite? Can I tick the box on the school application form to say that "yes I am a Christian?"

You see, it is difficult. I do think people who self define as not Christians tend to assume Christians are one homogenous group who all literally believe in the same fairy tales with a kind of blind faith. It's really not like that.