Make up, boob job, internal dilemma and explaining it all to DD

[Ploppymoodypants]

Hello, probably wrong section but posting here for traffic. I am currently having an internal dilemma I can't sort out in my head. I identify as a feminist and also believe that being a feminist means that other women can make their own choices, so my dilemma is in no way about judging others. Anyway I usually wear make up (not a lot, tinted moisturiser and mascara) and like to make an effort for nice occasions with clothes, but am equally comfortable slobbing around on the farm knee deep in muck. I am firmly of the opinion that people's self worth should not be attributed to how good looking they are. However I am really struggling to answer my DD (3) when she asks why I wear make up, without giving the message that what you look like is important... Additionally since children my boobs have shrunk to non existent and I would quite like a boob job but again how do I explain that to DD without giving a message that we must have sexy boobs to please our men/be valued? Am I over thinking it? Any advice would be helpful. Thank you

kali

I agree, I think just having the choice of doing what you want to do because it makes you happy is important. Having the choice regardless of gender is also important, I want my girls to know that they can do whatever they want. Maybe DD wants to be a mechanic...typically male job, and so what?! because she can do it if she wants and if its what makes her happy who is anybody else to judge your happiness and what makes you happy.

The real (feminist) issue is why it makes you happy.
Why is it normal for women to be made happy by painting our faces - and not normal for men?
If face-painting makes humans happy surely it would make men happy too.

... I can actually put up a good argument that self-decoration does make humans of both sexes happier. But this is not what's occurring in our societies. Women paint our faces & nails, fancy up our hair and hang metal ornaments off ourselves. Men don't. If all the men were wishing they could do the same because it would make them happier, they'd be doing it wouldn't they?!

The feminist argument is that your 'happiness' from spending all this time, effort & money on altering your appearance doesn't happen by itself. You have been indoctrinated to believe it makes you happy.

Which brings us back to OP's reason for questioning what she tells her DD :)

OP, I have had very similar thought processes. I don't consider myself a feminist (actually probably far from it!) but as I heard myself telling my daughter make up made me look pretty, and she didn't needed it because she was young and beautiful, I suddenly thought about the message I had just inadvertedly given her.

I think lily talks a lot of sense to be honest. I agree with all she says.

As an aside, I also think the pressure to look a certain way to conform to society's view of what's attractive isn't isolated just to women, I think the pressure on men to have the perfect 6 pack, to wear the right clothes, etc has increased. My dh uses more lotions and potions than my father ever would. There's now such a huge industry aimed at male grooming. I think it's important for us to teach both our girls and boys to embrace the way they look, that beauty and happiness does indeed come from within, and that happiness doesn't solely come how you look.

Agree too it's not enough for it to simply be your "choice" and I don't agree that feminism is "about choice". It's not true that every choice a woman makes is OK and/or a feminist choice simply because she's female.

Women make choices to perpetrate FGM and honour killings, doesn't make them right. Women also make choices to do things that counteract feminism, such as teaching/modelling for their kids that it's OK for women to put up with men not doing their share in the home. And so on.

So I do agree we need to be aware of why we are making our choices, and my choice to "enjoy" make-up is deeply influenced by a gazillion images I've seen and messages I've been given. However, even given that, I'm not sure there's much else I can do than what I want to do. I could wear a "man's" suit, a sack or a banana costume to indicate that I am resisting the messages that tell me what my appearance should be like. But I like dresses, I like pink and I like make-up so I would be making myself unhappy to make a point.

I also don't think at all that appearance doesn't matter to men. It absolutely does and many men feel extremely strongly about how they should look because they are subject to the same kinds of pressures. It's just that because the traditionally accepted "male" look is much more narrowly defined and less colourful, we don't tend to see it as decoration/titivation. But ask a man to step outside his comfort zone re clothing and appearance, and in most cases he'll strongly resist.

This is why I try to take the view that make-up is a decorative / aesthetic option that's open to anyone. In some other societies, and periods in history, it is/was a male thing so there is nothing inherently female about it.

Let's also not forget that the amount of time men spend removing or shaping their facial hair to get the look they want, is probably comparable to the time many women spend on make up.

I feel differently about boob jobs because that comes with a significant risk, cost and pain. To go through that for appearance's sake seems to me a different level of submitting to pressure. OTOH sometimes cosmetic procedures seem entirely reasonable, so I'm a bit on the fence.

I shave under my armpits because it's hot over here and it makes it easier for antiperspirant coverage. I used to shave my legs until we were allowed to wear trousers at work (compulsory uniform) then stopped. Only time I shave them now is when I plan to wear stockings, the hairs poking through just don't look right.

Never had a mons pubis shave until required for hospital op and hairy again since then.

As for makeup we can get away with the moisturiser and sunscreen requirement as we have T 30's to 40's in summer.

to be honest the idea that the cosmetics industry has made progress in undermining men's self esteem also isn't a massive positive for me.

Sure men care about their appearance and are starting to follow the same path of negative body image and insecurity that women have been on for the last 50 years but we should all save each other, not celebrate the fact they are screwed too!

Men used only to have to be insecure about the size/shape of their penises. Now it has maybe moved to six pack, and a few other areas...women are entrenched in the knowledge of all their flaws.

If I ask the women I work with what they hate about their bodies they flood me with a well thought out detailed list.

I asked the man I work in the office next too what he hated about his body and honestly he didn't understand the question. After about 5 mins of head scratching he said he wish he hadn't chopped the end off one of his fingers in a lawn mower accident 15 years ago.

We need to get where the men are on this one...not the other way around.

I don't actually mean the cosmetic industry putting pressure on men, or body image pressures, that's not what I meant by the same pressures. I just mean pressure from society - often peer pressure from other men not to look different.

Aside from the men's toiletries and six-pack phenomenon, I actually think men men are less "dandyish" than they used to be and tend to experiment less with their look, colours, style etc. Actually I like men who do. There is nothing inherently wrong about being interested in fashion – fashion is an aesthetic design pursuit like any other, to me it's no different from being interested in art, or making your house look nice. You don't have to have a "perfect" (according to society) face or body to enjoy interesting colours and decoration.

The hating your own body thing does upset me and I can genuinely honestly say I don't, at all. I am always amazed at the number of women who do, and I think the movements towards acceptance of all appearances and body shapes are really important.

madam

" I like pink and I like make-up so I would be making myself unhappy to make a point."

I agree with this entirely. Liking pink almost seems conditioned as a girl, from the time we are little everything deemed to be pretty is pink/frilly/girly etc. For those of us who like pink could probably ask ourselves the question why do we really like pink? Boys could equally also ask themselves why they like blue? As blue is typically seen as boyish or masculine.

At what point do you rebel against these preconditioned likes from childhood media 'barbie/action man' without making yourself unhappy/denying your likes in the name of making a point?

I think at where we are as a society currently the only way to combat these media lead gender stereotypes is to give our children the freedom of choice to choose what they like regardless of whether it's a typically boy or girl thing to have/do. My girls both like pink...though if you were to ask favourite colours DD1 would say blue and DD2 would say yellow. They both have barbies and pink things but they also have lots of cars and a scaletrix and multistory parking garage which they play with.

My point is it's fine to like pink and frilly if that's what you like and it's fine to like cars and playing in the mud if that's what you like and not to be concerned about liking cars because it's not a girly or liking pink and fluffy because it is seen as girly.

I think we need to stop seeing things as typically girly/boyish and just see all the choices and options we have as equal and open to all. So shave your legs if it makes you happy or don't shave your legs if that makes you happy. However I think it's daft to not shave your legs in the name of making a point if having shaved legs is really what you prefer. Same goes for pink/boobs/lipstick or whatever you can think of.

madam Peer pressure has always existed and attractiveness has always been a bargaining tool for both men and women...though of course men have also been allowed other tools such as success, money and power....

What has changed is the power of advertising and it is increasing exponentially at the moment. I have a pop up next to what I am writing right now telling me that people will like me more if my feet are all soft and smooth...not something I would ever have worried about...until now!

Adverts telling us we need to improve our appearance and are only valuable to society if we look good are in our faces ALL THE TIME now. We are paying a heavy price for it in the mental health of our children.

lilly the problem is more that boys can't wear pink as it is beneath them to appear girlish in any way.

It is nice that girls are 'allowed' to have male stereotype interests or favourite colours...but the problem won't go away until male children are wearing pink sequined baby grows and flowers in their hair from birth the same way girls are.

Ice

"Sure men care about their appearance and are starting to follow the same path of negative body image and insecurity that women have been on for the last 50 years but we should all save each other, not celebrate the fact they are screwed too!"

I agree, however I think sadly that it may take men understanding the pressures through experiencing what women have for generations to really effect a meaningful change in society as a whole.

Advertising is really what perpetuates so much of this as we are constantly told what we need. You need this pill to make you slimmer, this cream to combat wrinkles, this fruit blender to make you healthy, these trainers to make you cool. It's sold as a need, a thing to give kudos, status or make you more beautiful/handsome. Advertising and the millions spent on targeting the worlds insecurities in order to make them buy a product is what is truly evil. I think if all advertising was removed from the world it really would be a better place.

I shave my legs sometimes because it's uncomfortable. I am more than happy to go the gym in leggings with my hairy legs showing. I don't feel compelled to by anyone or society.

I crop my pubic hair, because when I train it becomes uncomfortable and sweaty and I don't like.

My dad shaves his armpits for the same reason.

I wear make up because I like to wear make up. But can quite easily go out without it.

All you need to do is tech your dd that these are choices she should make for herself.

I know loads of men who have their chests waxed because they feel it looks better in their line work (fitness industry) I don't know any who worry this may become a parenting issue though

My DSs were similar age when I had a book job. They don't remember at all and I don't think they would ever ask in the future. I can't see why it would be different for your DD.

I don't think wearing make up or having a boob job makes you not a feminist. I believe that you should be able to make your own choices without having to adhere to what other people think is right. If you are doing it for yourself then you are doing the right thing IMO.

My boys ask about make up and I just say because I like how it looks. I guess it's easier with boys though.

I'm not sure that 'if you are doing the right thing for yourself then it is the right thing' is a very valid message for parents.

For non-parents, sure - knock yourself out.

But when you are a parent you don't always do the things that are the right thing for you, where that thing is the wrong thing for your children.

The right thing for me now would be to change jobs and put more time into politics. I would love to do that - and if I was single/childless I would. But I have a DD with some special needs and it would be a terrible shock to her at a time when she is unable to absorb it.

Sorry but parents shouldn't just do what feels right for them...they need to consider the impact their lifestyle decisions have on their children.

I was just having a look at some psychological data on cosmetic surgery. It seems that people are on average happier with their appearance after surgery than before (well you would certainly hope so) but there is no improvement in self-esteem.

This is, I think, easy to understand because changing yourself is acknowledging you weren't good enough to begin with....reinforcing a negative message about yourself is unlikely to make you feel more confident.

But when you are a parent you don't always do the things that are the right thing for you, where that thing is the wrong thing for your children.

How does that apply to boob jobs and make up?

My DD is 4 and likes to watch me put makeup on, has the occasional go herself.

She asks me why I wear it - it is because I look tired without it! Which she accepts.
I have been very careful not to say "to make me look pretty". Same with clothes. She says to me sometimes - I want to wear "X" to look pretty. I tell her every time, she looks pretty whatever she wears. I also tell her she looks smart (which she used to hate but now accepts me saying it).

I am also very careful not to denigrate her choices when they are "pink" ones whereas others in my family have. E.g. she selected a book which was typically girly - I made no comment. The reason being because it has struck me recently: why is ok for boys to choose things like cars/trucks etc but girls should be less girly? So if that is her choice, then so be it. I think it only makes sense in my head!

So my aim is to make both of my children confident and happy in their choices and not to think that their gender will hold them back in any way.

I also identify as a feminist & love clothes/makeup.

I can't get on board with breast augmentation, but that's just one person's opinion. My best friend from high school has one and it's all a bit weird/tragic.

katenka are you joking? Seeing you mum undergoing surgery because she hates her body that much is a horribly negative message to send to child.

It is normalising something pathological.

Most people who do drugs don't do it in front of their children, because I imagine they think the message that it is great to make yourself happy using chemicals is not a healthy message.

The message that changing your appearance makes you happy/more valuable to society is also not a healthy message.

People on here have told their young daughters that they have to wear make up and dress a certain way in order to be respected at work. Seriously - how fucked up a message is that? It certainly isn't a feminist one.

A feminist message would be 'you should be respected for what you can contribute regardless of how you look or what you where.'

wear ffs.

I don't wear makeup because i think i need it. I did used to need foundation as i had extremely bad skin but now my skin is ok. Still not perfect, but ok for me.
I can go days not wearing it.
I only wear eyeshadow as i find it fun not because i think i'll feel better with it on. I only wear it for a few hours before i take it off.
I've gone out with blokes who wore makeup and nail arnish so don't agree there.
I love pink not because i was indoctrinated, i actually hated it as a child!
My mother had creams etc yet i never grew up thinking i need this or i need that.
I have cellulite etc but i don't care. It's who i am. If i did then i'd something about it.
If i wanted bigger boobs i'd have a boob job, not because i think Society has conditioned me ( as nobody knows how big my boobs are) but because clothes looked better when my boobs were a bit bigger.
I have no problem with cosemtic surgery. What about deformities? Or scars from accidents? Is that not acceptable either?

katenka are you joking? Seeing you mum undergoing surgery because she hates her body that much is a horribly negative message to send to child.

No I am not joking. Firstly, not everyone who has cosmetic surgery hates their body. They may not be happy with it but thy don't hate it.

Me for one. I had a boob reduction and uplift. I didn't hate my boobs but they were uncomfortable. Since I didn't give up the autonomy I have over my own body when I had kids it was decision.

Yes sometime we do things differently because we have kids. But we don't give away the right to decide what's best for us.

People on here have told their young daughters that they have to wear make up and dress a certain way in order to be respected at work. Seriously - how fucked up a message is that? It certainly isn't a feminist one.

I don't agree with teaching children that. I still think a mother has autonomy over her own body.

A feminist message would be 'you should be respected for what you can contribute regardless of how you look or what you where.

A feminist message should also be 'you have the right to choose what is best for you, regardless of the judgments others will pass because you chose cosmetic surgery.'

Me for one. I had a boob reduction and uplift. I didn't hate my boobs but they were uncomfortable. Since I didn't give up the autonomy I have over my own body when I had kids it was decision.

I think it should be obvious that a reduction is quite different than augmentation.