Make up, boob job, internal dilemma and explaining it all to DD

[Ploppymoodypants]

Hello, probably wrong section but posting here for traffic. I am currently having an internal dilemma I can't sort out in my head. I identify as a feminist and also believe that being a feminist means that other women can make their own choices, so my dilemma is in no way about judging others. Anyway I usually wear make up (not a lot, tinted moisturiser and mascara) and like to make an effort for nice occasions with clothes, but am equally comfortable slobbing around on the farm knee deep in muck. I am firmly of the opinion that people's self worth should not be attributed to how good looking they are. However I am really struggling to answer my DD (3) when she asks why I wear make up, without giving the message that what you look like is important... Additionally since children my boobs have shrunk to non existent and I would quite like a boob job but again how do I explain that to DD without giving a message that we must have sexy boobs to please our men/be valued? Am I over thinking it? Any advice would be helpful. Thank you

Look - honestly, why would you be getting the boob job? Surely, it's for you. Nothing wrong with that. Surely it's not for yoir DP. I think you can still be body conscious and be a feminist. You'd still brush your teeth, brush your hair and wear clean clothes. Not for anyone else, but yourself, right?

Why should you have a body you don't like, due to pregnancy/breast feeding? In my opinion, being a feminist means that you can have a boob job because you want one. IMHO, anti-feminists would like women to ruin their body with pregnancy/childbirth and be stuck with that body forever, feeling miserable.

You say yourself, that you identify with being a feminist which for you means other women have choice. I whole heartedly agree with you. Yoir choice is make up and boob job. For you.

Being a feminist doesn't mean you can't wear make up etc, save legs, or do anything you want. Sorry I thought said that it my OP. And I guess I am trying to be honest with myself and that's why I am struggling. I like shaving my legs, but am aware I only started doing it because of societal pressure etc. So my dilemma is really that's since I have become more aware if feminism and the patriarchal society we live in, I am on a journey (yes cheesy phrase) of trying to make sense in my own mind of why I do certain things and why I even like them myself. I am sure it's no coincidence this has occurred around the time I had a daughter.

And yes I agree about invasive surgery. I was thinking that in 200 years they will look at boobs jobs in horror the way we view Chinese feet biding now. Or again maybe over thinking.

If you don't want her to wear makeup, shave her legs then best you don't do it yourself? Lead by example.

I say because it's fun, and I use moisturiser etc because I like the feeling of looking after my skin and it smells nice. My dd regards it as face paint, peoole enjoy making themselves look different. I sympathise about the boobs, mine are similar but I wouldn't have the op, it's important for girls to understand how bodies age, it can't be true that having children and natural ageing of boobs means we can only be happy with ourselves after a boob loft etc.

I am happy for DD to wear make up or shave her legs. But I would like it to be because she wants to, not because she thinks she should. And that's what I am trying to understand about myself. For example I no longer wear tight fitting pencil skirts and shirts to work as they are so uncomfortable and realised I wore them to look acceptable to the men in a previous job where there was a lot of horrible sexism against women they didn't find conventionally attractive. But equally if I did like them I would still wear them. But I am a work in progress.

Thank you for all your input. It is providing me with useful ideas for my thought processes.

I know what you mean op. It's not until you have a DD that you see things through their young eyes. My toddler dd used to play with my make up and it was all very cute. I wear it every day and she used to watch me put it on, transfixed.Found myself disapproving when she wanted to wear it regularly aged 14! Such double standards! It's the way of the world so don't overthink it. If you want a boob job then get one, Mummy will be away a couple of days, she won't notice.

I just say 'cause I want to/like it' when my 5 yr old asks. I don't want to say cause it makes me look pretty/younger or whatever cause I don't wa nt her thinking it is needed.

Why should you have a body you don't like

Why should you dislike your body just because it bore children and breastfed? Women are taught to dislike their bodies - it's a conditioned response, based on an assumption of what men find sexy. Who cares? None of my mothers' generation thought they should have boob jobs.

I dont wear make up a lot so dd does notice when I do. However my usual answer is "I love slobbing around in my jim jams but sometimes, when it is party time, I like to put some make up on".

I think if I were to have a boob job Id probably just say "Mammys boobies were just looking a bit tired and I wanted them to be squishy again so the doctor helped me with that"

I was thinking that in 200 years they will look at boobs jobs in horror the way we view Chinese feet biding now

Of course. I think we'll see it like female genital mutilation.

I like make-up, and am a feminist. I tell DD it is fun and I like it. I paint her toenails when she asks too. My approach though is to tell her that anyone can wear make up, and men do, too. I'll point it out (subtly) when men are, because I know she's getting messages that it;s a girl thing, from her peers etc. I'll point out Grayson perry in a pic and discuss it with her that he also likes the colours and finds it fun.

It is important what you look like, to an extent. Both men and women are expected to have a certain level of grooming and awareness of appearance. Not having that is seen a worrying sign, is the person depressed/alcoholic, etc? So as a feminist I don't feel bad about caring about my appearance.

What is not OK for me is doing something because men expect it, or for men, or indeed for anyone, if it's not what you want. That's the message I try to give both my DC.

I wear make up to work but not really at the weekend. I tell dd it's because mummy needs to look smart to work like she needs to be smart to school with her hair brushed and tied back and her shirt tucked in etc. I do tell her it's important to look smart at school/work because I truly believe it is. She also knows she and I both have sparkly toes when we go on holiday just for fun.

I think you can tell a 3 year old or even a 7 year old a tale about all this stuff, but at some point, when your dds get older and teens, and actually want to wear make-up for all the same reasons you did, then you just have to be honest. I don't say it's 'fun' because although I enjoy putting on make-up, deep down, I do believe I need it and look better with it. I wouldn't go out without it, except very locally say to a shop and even then, very occasionally. I don't pretend to my girls there's another reason now, that is the reason.

Boob jobs are another level of intervention, I would be very unhappy if my dds had a boob job (I don't mind at all if they wear make-up or don't wear make-up). I have a saggy tummy that looks, well, saggy all the time and nothing holds it in, but I'm not going to have a tummy tuck because I would no way risk major surgery and I would see it as a defeat of my acceptance of my post-babies body. That might not be the same for you- people view the same thing very differently, but I do think (in a moment of weakness when I think about plastic surgery) that if I wouldn't want it for my children, I shouldn't want it for me, so there is a principle under there of not wanting to model that.

Thank you lionsledge. That was helpful. You have articulated my current mindset better than I did.

You are right about the bra fitting lady. And yes grateful they are healthy and work.

I guess I don't actually mind my boobs. But literally they flop out when swimming. And other times unless wear hot uncomfortable sports bra. I wish I lived in a society where I could swim topless in the local pool without anyone batting an eyelid, but I don't. One flopped out this weekend and DH laughed so much (with me not at me) his false tooth fell out! We are a lovely pair.

Feminism means we can choose. I don't really like the term feminism. Men can choose too. I wear make up not because i have to but because I choose to and sometimes i choose not to. Men can shave or not, cut their hair short or wear a ponytail. To me that is everyone's right as long as we are not dirty and smelly or tattooing swear words on our faces etc.
I dislike boob jobs for vanity as opposed to reconstruction after cancer and would have a hard time explaining that to my DD.

One flopped out this weekend and DH laughed so much (with me not at me) his false tooth fell out! We are a lovely pair

OP

I'm interested by the posts on this thread that equate boob jobs with vanity, but not wearing make-up ("it's fin"; "it makes me feel better" etc): surely all wanting to look "better" (however that's defined) is vanity?

(Disclaimer: I have nothing against make up or boob jobs. I don't wear make up and the only kind of boob job I'd ever have is a reduction.)

I don't think the OP is overthinking it at all. Plenty of people are derisive about women wearing make up and having boob jobs (see the current threads on aibu about women on make up counters with bad make up, and women who have striking eyebrows), and I've heard these kind of choices criticised from a feminist perspective many times too. I think modern feminism is a lot about coming to terms with the fact that everyone is to an extent complicit in patriarchy and that therefore many of the choices with which we're faced don't have a simple right or wrong answer. However, I think that for now 'because I want to' is a fine answer. Saying that some women like to wear make up, but also saying that some men choose to too might be a good way of introducing the idea that it's not a necessary part of being female.

Ahem. ^^That would be "fun" and not "fin"

Yes you are right hefzi it's a double standard. I suppose a boob job is permanent. Make up can be worn or not, has nothing to do with age. Maybe that's why surgery is a step too far for me.

I am very honest that I wear make-up for vanity, I can't see the point in pretending otherwise.

I don't self-define as a feminist partly for these sorts of reasons: I think it's very difficult to tease out the "whys" of a process - are we doing this for ourselves, truly, or is it (also/solely) for an external audience etc etc How can we be sure our processes are self-driven and not shaped by societal expectations?

So - for example: I know that the way I present myself is down to my own choice, because it's not conditioned by society's expectations - I don't wear make up and am not interested in clothes deemed fashionable/stylish etc So I feel OK on that score: but shaving my legs? I've done it for 30 odd years, and I'm fairly sure I did it in the beginning because the societal expectation was that women in the UK shaved their legs (to be fair, I was about 11- I can't actually remember anything except nicking a huge chunk out of my ankle ) Why do I shave them now, when no-one but me sees them? Because it's more comfortable - I find it itchy (even when the hair is longer and not just stubble) and too hot (I often have to go to uncomfortable climates for work) So it started, probably, as a societal expectation - but remains a process because it's comfortable for me. Same with my underarms.

When it comes to my mons pubis, however, I went fur free decades before it became the fashion - it was driven by comfort at the time (working outside overseas in extreme heat: makes it less sweaty and itchy, plus easier to keep clean when you have your period and there's no running water, never mind an actual toilet) and remains that way because I find it more comfortable and less itchy still. So like my unfashionable clothes and make-up free face, I am sure that's driven by my choices, not by what society expects.

But I think in general, it's quite hard to tease out our own motives for things, which I think is OP's dilemma. I'm not a fan of cosmetic surgery, but not for feminist reasons - I just think you'd be mad to put your body through surgical procedures that weren't medically necessary. At the same time, though, I can see how some - including boob jobs - could be psychologically necessary: but I think I'd personally want to be sure I'd perhaps had counselling to unpack precisely why I felt it was so important for me. It's pretty straight forward to define why, if you've been attacked with acid, you might want your face treated. It's less clear cut, though, if you're talking about natural signs of ageing etc

I guess what this post is really about is that I am not sure it's as clear cut as PP are implying, maybe.

How will your DD even know about the boob job? I assume you're not getting giant Jordan sized breasts, so nobody will know except you and DH. Just have a good excuse ready for when you go into hospital, recover etc. I think counselling might be a good idea to help you talk through things and decide why you want to have the surgery, but if your heart is set on it then it's really your choice. There are a couple of surgeries I'd like to have, but I'm too chicken and don't have the cash. I can see why people are tempted.

Thinking about it further, I tend to dress according to the company I am with (which also dictates the activities as well I suppose). But if I am with my more feminist friends I worry about looking too sexual or made up, but at work I feel I should look more polished etc. Similar to pressure at school to have the right trainers etc. The pressure is in my head by the way and not verbalised by anyone. So I am not even sure what I do like really, or rather 'why' I like it. Apparently conforming or trying to blend in or fit in with those around you is a basic survival instinct which I can understand.