World Hijab Day

[Marzipanface]

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this day and also really irritated at the lack of discussion over this event from a feminist perspective. There seems to be a wholesale silence from the Feminist blogs and papers I subscribe to, and I can't find any discussion on here. No-one wants to talk to about it.

Just that really.

Oh yawn, what a surprise! another Muslim bashing thread.

I respect the right of women from all walks of life to dress how they want to

How very decent and this on the day that I saw a young Muslim lady off at the airport who has found that if she travels using the hijab she is always frisked, so she opted to not use the hijab even though that is her preference.

But no, from what I have seen of the majority of the posters here, nobody would defend her right to wear what she wants.

From a popular "feminist" site a few years back:

jezebel.com/5744857/know-your-veils-a-guide-to-middle-easter-head-coverings/

The cultural cringe and virtue-signaling are positively frantic with this one. From both the article and most of the commentators.

I'd love to do a parody of this called "Veil styles--A Guide For Sexist Men." Featuring a veil that covers your eyes up so as to helpfully preserve you from the dreadful sight of lewd unveiled women. And an abaya/straight-jacket-type thing that's designed to keep your arms pinned down to your side so you can't grope or point. And a mouth-covering device that prevents you from shouting out sexist remarks at women.

Atenco, would you be willing to answer my question?

Would you agree with WHD being inclusive of men spending a day covered?

Do you know any men who would wear a hijab for a day?

I'm sorry you see this as a 'Muslim bashing' thread. I think many posters have said they find the veil deeply sexist.

If you've seen the film 'Suffragette' perhaps you can understand why we do not want women to be so conspicuously 'other' in our society.

We want, and have long fought for, equality.

I find it interesting that when non-Muslims talk about head/face/body covering, we get the virtual roll-eyes and told to ask Muslim women why they're wearing a veil/headscarf/full body covering and we should listen to why they're doing it.

However, it does seem apparent that some are not interested in the reasons non-Muslims might have an issue with it.

If you've seen the film 'Suffragette' perhaps you can understand why we do not want women to be so conspicuously 'other' in our society

I heartily recommend this film to everyone. Womens right didn't appear in this country overnight, they were long, hard fought battle. We appear to losing sight of this.

The islamophobia is strong in this one

Wearing a veil is no more and no less a symbol of subjugation to the male gaze than (say) wearing a crippling pair of high heels, or a pencil skirt so narrow that you can barely walk let alone run.

Ultimately it's a woman's choice what she wears; it's unfortunate if some women are influence in their choice of clothing by men's attitudes, but this is just as much a problem for "western" women as for muslims.

Personally - as a feminist I dislike seeing women covering their faces, or tottering in ridiculous high heels, or plastering their faces in make-up so thick that their true looks are disguised. But I would absolutely defend their right to do those things (the only exception for me is the use of full-face veils in any place where other face-covering items, like a motorcycle helmet, would be banned).

In for a penny....
I'm writing from on of the countries on the left of evilcherub's pic, one where Muslim Women are forced to wear a Niqab or Burqa.
I'd love to see a hijab day, one where all the veils were ditched, and "just" a hijab worn.
I'd love to see a world colour day, where anything but plain black required.
I'd love to see a summer colour abaya: after all the summer thobes are white, but many are khaki, blue or grey over winter.

Hijab wearing in Europe has a completely different set of feminist-religious-sexist-safety issues to those in parts of the Middle East. But then, according to the Hijri Calander, it is only 1437 here.

What would a Western Hijab day show? Is it aimed at reducing islamophobia in the west, a marketing ploy for the hijab seller or trying to empower and support those living under regimes where Burkas and Niqabs are essential to leave the front door?

For those asking, under a Niqab, I can usually pick out basic facial expressions, but Burkas are beyond my none verbal message radar.

Sorry, that is not particularly coherent, just some of the thoughts that sprang to mind as I read through.

Oh, and I thought France banned face covering, which would include Niqabs and Burkas, but not hijabs?

Wearing a veil is no more and no less a symbol of subjugation to the male gaze than (say) wearing a crippling pair of high heels, or a pencil skirt so narrow that you can barely walk let alone run

Absolute bollocks.

The thing is, Misti, I'm really struggling to think of a country where women aren't allowed out unless they wear a pencil skirt, spike heels and a full face of slap.

Not RTFT but for those talking about wanting men to wear coverings

Among the Tuareg, Songhai, Moors, Hausa, and Fulani of West Africa, women do not traditionally wear the veil, while men do. The men's facial covering originates from the belief that such action wards off evil spirits, but most probably relates to protection against the harsh desert sands as well; in any event, it is a firmly established tradition. Men begin wearing a veil at age 25 which conceals their entire face excluding their eyes. This veil is never removed, even in front of family members.[33][34]

I think I remember a tribe where men are veiled and women are not and that is because the women are beautiful to look at (i think is the reason) you could check utube i think i saw the video?

France only banned the full covering in public, not in private and it has not banned head covering. The British are not like the French - we are a bit more tolerant but Je Suis Charlie all the same - we have a British right to offend, to say there is no God, to say it is sexist and damaging for women to cover their head (and indeed to those few women still wearing high heels that that might not get you able to run for that bus very quickly)

So let world hijab day be the say that you organise a local burning of head coverings in public and let us hope the muslim people amongst whom you live in the UK are as tolerant as the rest of the British and allow you to do that. I hope they would.

(that's copied from wikipedia)

Oh FFS, deogratias , islamophobic tosh.

The thing is, Misti, I'm really struggling to think of a country where women aren't allowed out unless they wear a pencil skirt, spike heels and a full face of slap.

Most of the discussion on this thread has been about the wearing of veils in european countries. If you're a woman in Saudi, or a Taliban controlled area of Afghanistan, frankly the veil is the least of your problems.

In Europe, we have a tradition of freedom of choice in terms of dress (as long as that dress complies with local laws and customs: you wouldn't wear a motorcycle helmet into a bank or a government building, or a bikini into the Vatican or a synagogue). And that freedom applies to muslim women as well as others.

You may think it's a shame that some muslim women are influenced into systematically covering their hair or their faces; so do I. But I also think it's a shame that young women feel obliged to wear skimpy clothes and heels. There's no difference. Once you start from a point of view that adults have the right to determine what they wear (within legal constraints) then you can't turn around and say that a subset women is not competent to make their own decisions. In Western countries adults, including muslim women, are presumed capable of making their own decisions in matters great and small, unless they are legally incompetent.

You missed my point, Misti. I also think it's a shame that young women feel pressured into the spike heels look. But I cannot understand why women who don't have to opt to wear garments which are, in some countries, forced on women as a patriarchal practice before they are even allowed out of the house.

Islamophibic tosh

Really? I see people discussing, so please don't try and close down a debate because you don't like what's being discussed in a democracy.

My question is this:

Would you ask a man (Muslim or non-Muslim, and would you make a distinction?) to wear a hijab on WHD to experience what his sisters do, as non-Islamic women are being asked to do?

If not, a lot of people would view that as sex discrimination, for which there are hard-won laws protecting our citizens against such abuse of basic human rights.

If you would, then I will happily support it.

In fact, I'd support women having a non-hijab day so they can experience what it's like not to wear one.

I've done both, in many ME and N African countries where I went to school and then worked for ten years, so I'm not irrationally terrified of something that many of my friends do.

I'm all for tolerance, understanding and shared experience for all.

But not for the frankly trite and lazy 'you're all Islamophobic' slur when you don't like an argument.

YABU.

Atenco that will be because it's mostly Muslims who commit terrorist atrocities these days. Which is very different to saying that all Muslims are terrorists - I am Muslim myself. If you were in airport security, who would you search? It's not Islamaphobic in the least and only the most hard of thinking, logic-deprived person could possibly object.

I re-watched Wajda last night as DH had not seen it. One of the lines really resonated with me, when the head teacher wants the girls to be quiet, she says "a woman's voice is her nakedness". Would we object to religiously-imposed forms of "modesty" that basically require women to STFU? Islam silences women and some of them are complicit in it. Hijab is the thin end of a very big wedge - and I say that having been compelled to wear hijab by the Iman who conducted my wedding in the UK.

Richard Dawkins makes some very interesting points about feminism's embarrassing lack of response to militant Islam in the Times this week. It's behind a paywall so I can't link, but well worth a read.

There are a couple of Muslim posters on the Guardian comments page who have made interesting poinst about what they see as the "arabification" of the Muslim population in this country, who of course are primarily of Pakistani heritage.

The Pakistani form of the veil is the duppatta, the loose scarf as worn by Benazir Bhutto, for example, which doesn't cover all the hair and neck. What we seem to be seeing is the slow replacement of the duppatta on the streets of Britain with the arabic hijab, which is also increasingly coloured black.

These Muslim commentators see this as a form of cultural imperialism, funded by the billions Saudi is spending to eliminate versions of Islam that don't conform to Wahabi ideas.

France only banned the full covering in public, not in private and it has not banned head covering

having lived, worked and studied in France even 10 years ago I was shocked at the Islamaphobia there- and its not got better. I was disappointed but not in the least bit suprised by the Charlie Hebdo attacks, or the other events.

I think that we should back the fuck off this veil banning and focus on integration and education instead.

With a more integrated society, I suspect that people wont be quite so keen to put 5 year olds in the Hijab as the need will lessen.

You missed my point, Misti. I also think it's a shame that young women feel pressured into the spike heels look. But I cannot understand why women who don't have to opt to wear garments which are, in some countries, forced on women as a patriarchal practice before they are even allowed out of the house.

Sure, I don't understand it either. Doesn't mean to say that I think I have any right to determine how another woman dresses.

Don't get me wrong - I am absolutely against obliging women to wear a veil, but in countries where veils are all-but-obligatory for women, there are much worse infringements of their rights that we should be campaigning against. If we care about the religious and cultural subjugation of women, then (for example) lobbying for the government to rethink its support for the Saudi theocracy might be a start.

Misti I agree with you. I thoroughly recommend 'Living Dolls' by Natasha Walters. She acknowledges that a lot of progress has been made eg in women's employment rights but argues, that in some areas, we are going backwards. She argues that boys'/girls' toys and clothes are more sex segregated than they were 30 years ago and that the proliferation of porn means that there is more pressure on girls and women to look a particular way than there has ever been. I believe that, if all men were wiped out (which I'm not advocating) that most Muslim women would stop wearing burkas and niquabs but you would also see a dramatic reduction in women having boob jobs and wearing cripplingly high heels. It's like 2 sides of the same coin.

Don't even start me on girls' Lego...

Seems we basically agree, Misti. Possibly where we differ is that I see hijab as the thin end of a very sexist wedge, whose fat end involves not being allowed to go to school. For that reason, I feel uneasy when a woman makes the 'choice' to wear it when she doesn't have to.

Lumela and I see crippling heels and skimpy clothing and other gender-defining clothing as a thin end of a wedge that ultimately (by shaping our view of what women are and can be) restricts women's access to education and work.

Wasn't there a post on here yesterday about a t-shirt with a slogan celebrating girls' inability at maths? That's just as inappropriate as a headscarf (more so IMO).

Atenco, I'd defend her right to wear it, but not her decision to.

I agree with so many comments on this thread, particularly about choice not being made in a vacuum.