World Hijab Day

[Marzipanface]

AIBU to feel uncomfortable with this day and also really irritated at the lack of discussion over this event from a feminist perspective. There seems to be a wholesale silence from the Feminist blogs and papers I subscribe to, and I can't find any discussion on here. No-one wants to talk to about it.

Just that really.

Muslim women should be free to practice their faith without pressure to demonstrate it through wearing hijabs.

The attitude it shields is shocking and I'm always shocked and depressed so many apparently intelligent women do not not seem to appreciate the wider significance of what they are wearing.

It's not a choice if your community chooses to value you more when you veil. That is a subtle but invidious pressure and coercion.

Everyone wants to belong.

I'm getting a bit fed up of all this Islam business forced down our throats. You can't turn on the TV without something to do with Islam. None of the other world religions are forced on us in this way. Every discussion programme is dominated by Islamic issues these days it seems. Now a Niqab day. Give us a break please.

"None of the other world religions are forced upon us?" VivienneM - you mean apart from compulsory acts of Christian worship in all state schools? Bishops in the House of Lords?

Recently I saw an interview with a Muslim activist on a the Daily Show here in the US and what annoyed me in her explanation of the hijab was saying that it meant her sexuality was private. That really incensed me because the implication of course is that for non-Muslims or Muslims who choose not to wear it, our sexuality is somehow public. Everybody's sexuality is private and a matter for their own individual consent, regardless if they wear a burqa or practice naturism.

By connecting the hijab with modesty the implication is women without it are fair game. That may be the case in extremely conservative Muslim areas but in the vast majority of the world that does not apply. I refuse to celebrate or endorse any custom that is used to oppress or shame women, even if some women choose freely to adhere to it.

Yes, London has changed and the young (those who cover) have gone backwards. If there is a God I bet she is appalled by it all.

What does my headscarf mean to you?

http://www.ted.com/talks/yassminabdellmagiedwhattdoesmyyheadscarfmeannto_you#t-26223

Not totally on topic but interesting to watch all the same.

The UK is a Christian country this is why there is Christian led prayer

though I am all for secular schooling

I do not have a problem older girls or women wearing hijabs I do not like to see young girls wearing them I feel until they are past puberty and have a better understanding of the reasons why they would wear them then they shouldn't they are not sexual so have nothing to be modest about

The problem I feel is that we are allowing a very conservative extreme form of Islam to grow in this country one we do not challenge. The UK is a progressive country yet we have allowed thousands of young girls to be mutilated, we have ignored hate preachers, we have not wanted to challenge communities knowing that many men were abusing young girls, we will not challenge the Muslim communities this has not helped with relations and the government is as much to blame as those muslims who want to keep themselves separate from non muslims

I think more than anything it is just a politicial statement these days, sort of showing allegiance to a certain world view whilst saying "fuck you" to those that don't share that world view. I was recently looking at old photos of women in places like Afghanistan, Lebanon and Iran pre the Islamic Revolution and they dressed pretty much how non-Muslim women in Western countries dressed at the time. It's sad that the spread of political Islam/Wahhabism has brought about this suddenly very strict interpretation of modest clothing. It has become an political identity uniform.

Clothing restrictions that apply to women only are a way of excluding women from participating fully in society. And fuck that noise.

It's not a choice if your community chooses to value you more when you veil. That is a subtle but invidious pressure and coercion.

Totally. A "choice" is not always a completely free choice.

Regime not religion. The picture says it all.

The UK is a progressive country yet we have allowed thousands of young girls to be mutilated, we have ignored hate preachers, we have not wanted to challenge communities knowing that many men were abusing young girls, we will not challenge the Muslim communities this has not helped with relations and the government is as much to blame as those muslims who want to keep themselves separate from non muslims

You're correct, and while we definitely need to be fully mindful of cultural prejudice, bias, hate and the dangers of othering people, these difficult conversations absolutely need to be had. I think it's very bad that some people would like these things covered up and swept under the carpet, as with Cologne and Rotherham. It hands an open goal to the far right, IMO. People know when they're being lied to by the authorities and the media, much of the time. It doesn't stop racist attitudes to not allow people's legitimate concerns to be discussed freely, and not to take action against people for FGM, sexual abuse, rape etc for fear of opening a can of worms. Rather the opposite.

It does Maisy. So awfully sad.

Islamicized attire vs traditional dress in Islamic countries;

There are issues about wearing hijab that I find oppressive, personally. Foremost, there is the disempowerment arising from the fact that it is presumed I have no choice in the matter. I have made a fully informed decision to wear hijab (and niqab) for that matter, without one iota of force, coercion or otherwise. In my ten years as a Muslim in the UK, mixing with women from British, Asian, Arab and African backgrounds, I have never met a Muslim woman who wore hijab without her wanting to do so. The women who don’t want to cover their hair don’t, and those that do, do. This may not be the experience of every Muslim woman, but it is mine. Have people asked Muslim women who currently wear hijab about how they feel about it? Just curious.

The irony of the debate this that we are seen as victims of an oppressive faith, when in fact, we are oppressed by those who seek to ‘free’ us or ‘enlighten’ us – that is, taking away our power as individuals and as woman, by presuming that we don’t have the intellect, insight or awareness to make our own choices. People telling me I am oppressed, when I don’t feel I am, is condescending and rather lacking in credibility. I fully support the right for woman to choose to dress how they like. I may not opt for short skirts and sleeveless tops for going out (at home, I might do) myself, because I don’t want to. If I wanted to, I would. Surely every woman supports the right for women to wear as little, or as much, as they wish. As for men wearing shorts and T-shirt, and women covering from head to toe - has it never been known for a man to wear trousers, a jacket and a hat for example, paired with a woman wearing a short dress and heels. Totally fine by me, but strictly speaking there is a disparity there in terms of how much flesh each party is covering. The point is, please don’t presume we are voiceless and without rights just because of what we wear, because that suggests clothing choices determines who we are or are not, which is limiting, over-simplistic and wrong. One of the many reasons I cover is to move away from the idea that my clothing defines me.

Those pictures say it all really don't they?

"One of the many reasons I cover is to move away from the idea that my clothing defines me."

What are the other reason, ImontheTrain? Genuinely curious.

My question is, why do they WANT to wear it, then? I can't see a reason that doesn't come under "indoctrination". That's a false choice.

it would be extremely naive to believe that girls are not forced to wear a hijab within some communities

the niqab is I feel a different issue. sadly far far more women have no choice in the matter to wear it than those who do out of choice

the niqab for many creates a barrier, people can not communicate in the way they are used to and what is the norm in our society I do not wish to support this as become a norm in the UK. Women should not be invisible in society and that is what they become to strangers

I don't think all muslim women are without a voice, one I struggle to understand is the voice that wishes to support wahhabism

That's fine for you train but to me every time I see a woman in hijab, niqab, burqa etc I am reminded of the millions and millions of women around the world who have no choice in the matter and that bothers me.

Years ago, I must have been in my twenties, I remember staying up late channel surfing and I fell upon this undercover report type programme.

They were interviewing young girls in Afghanistan who were saying they were no longer allowed to listen to music or even go to school. Teachers were being persecuted and they were all forced to wear burkas. I was . I didn't have a clue what was going on in the world back then. I was outraged that this was being allowed to happen. I remember talking about it for weeks afterwards wanting to do something. No one was interested, it was the other side of the world after all and didn't affect them. Why should they care?

Years on and here we are. Perhaps if we had all listened and people acted back then this disease wouldn't have spread. Just looking at those pictures of traditional dress brings it home as to how many more women in more countries are being affected.

That isn't 'choice'.

The veil originated with the Assyrians. It sort of publicly branded women (for men's convenience) into the off limits ones and the ones that were fair game for the dudes in a patriarchal, militaristic society.

So it absolutely has origins from middle east though not derived from a God or Goddess, then or otherwise. I know that is very surprising! Goddesses and Gods keep changing over time, anyway. Most people who live in the region now would probably be regarded as atheistic or heathens by their ancestors for adopting alternative parvenue deities/idols. People can try dress it up how they like (pun intended), but it would still be bunkum.

There were two young women in the big headscarves on a channel 4 report. One was talking about her scarf and it seemed it wasn't simply an item of dress because it is associated with your 'modesty'. I guess like a badge or something. You wear this badge, you are extra good. I suppose, the patriarchy says so! I found it interesting when one of them kept going on and on about modesty whilst absolutely caked in a thick layer of make-up. What she meant was I am special and modest and get a gold star for my big scarf and am judging everyone who doesn't adopt it as whores or sluts. Ironically, I have heard other judgemental people who might describe her as a tart for her inch thick make-up, despite wearing what she regarded as a sacred garment bestowing modesty by simply using it for a head covering.

She was basically implying women who don't wear a big scarf on their heads like her are sluts (by saying she was wearing it for modesty and it made her a special modest woman) and some others, not taught that her headscarf bestowed modesty properties, looking at her caked in make-up and regarding her as a tart. Each in their own way useful idiots. Women vying to confer whore, tarts or sluts on each other simply because of the use or absence of artificial artifices. Who does this serve?

I've never heard a man being called 'immodest' for his garments or make-up. However, the most outline of a lunchbox I have ever seen was a guy streaming with a crowd towards a mosque. He had a long shirt dress on and obviously no trousers underneath. A strong wind contoured the dress cloth against his regions. His 'privates' stood very proud from the plane of his body. He would have been much more 'modest' in jeans.

In short, the claim it originated from some sort of religious commandment and has associations with the wearer's 'modesty' is twaddle. It is a piece of cloth on a head. Same rules regarding wearing any piece of cloth should apply. Make-up is also just stuff on a face. Being tarted up, doesn't make you a tart.

Lots of women mid 20th century used to wear a headscarf to keep their perm in place. Christianity and other religions/cultures were poisoned from the same chalice seeping from the Assyrians regarding a covered head is a 'modest' woman. However, I do like a beanie!

Lazy rambling over.

If you wear islamic dress your clothing does define you.

I don't support the idea you should cover up for your faith no.

You've quite a lot written there but not one iota about what this fully informed decision actually consists of.

Personally, I don't think you should have to devote one minute to considering whether you should veil or not.

I personally also really dislike the effort to mask it over as some kind of perverse exercise of personal liberty.

And do you never stop to consider you are enabling much greater oppression abroad by normalising it here? In a small way but still. Why would you want to be remotely associated with that?

You may not be voiceless but you are certainly not fully visible. And as you can see from this thread, veiling most definitely does define you in the eyes of others.

No one was interested, it was the other side of the world after all and didn't affect them. Why should they care?

No one gave a shit until 9/11. Then it was all about the West freeing the women of Afghanistan from the tyranny of the Taliban.