To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

Jassy I could very well ask you the same question.

Sorry, which question have you asked me that I haven't answered? I've asked you a number that you've ignored - your prerogative, but I'm not aware of ignoring lots of your questions, and I apologise if I've done so.

You could just as easy leave me alone to my beliefs as I could yours.

I'm happy to. We were all discussing schools without discussing the veracity or otherwise of Christianity apart from the status of the bible; you then cited the universe and the human eye as 'evidence' and have told us several times what 'is', and what we 'have to' believe. You also keep suggesting we need evidence for not believing in your particular god. I've not asked you for any evidence for the prof of yor god - you believe in him, fab. Just don't expect special privileges (like the idea that education in your faith is morally superior, and thus you should get special perks from the state for believing in your god) without challenge.

On the eye: Well, for a start, do you think a blind spot serves a purpose, or is it a flaw? Is the retina in the optimal spot?

That's a reasonable starting point.

(On the blind spot - it's sensible to say it's a reasonable trade off for the position of the retina. But if one were to design an eye from first principles would that evolutionary trade off be necessary - an eye that could control the amount of light entering the eye without blocking the field of vision?)

van.physics.illinois.edu/qa/listing.php?id=785
I have been answering your questions. Also responding to your statements.

answersingenesis.org/human-body/eyes/the-human-retina-shows-evidence-of-good-design/
Sorry this is the one I meant.

Call me crazy, but I'm not sure that 'answers in Genesis' is an objective source of information. On a swift read, the argument suggests that the eye is indeed brilliant (no one disagrees) and that the brain and body have developed workarounds for the issues caused by blind spots (also not disagreeing). What it fails to do is actually make a case for this being the actual optimal design for a human vision device, rather than the result of a series of workarounds to essential conflicts that evolved to enable the best hunters to survive.

That said, even were the eye not flawed in any way, I still don't consider its existence evidence of any deity, let alone specific evidence for the Christian god. Sorry, I know that causes issues for you. I know it works for you as an argument, it doesn't for me.

I've told you my view, you disagree, grand.

Still no answers? Okie doke.

(BTW, I thought your first link was better. )

It's only one example, there are countless more, but never mind. I'm going to bed now, I still don't know what you wanted me to answer.

My neighbours children attend a Welsh language school which is situated at the end of our street. Most of the children in our street attend a local community school less than 10 mins walk away. My children attend a C of E school 8 miles away. Well Boo Hoo!

Gosh, how nice to have such a lot of choice available to you.

Evolution

Why not accept it for what it is and not pick holes in it.

Science seeks to understand and never 'accept it for what it is'. Using your model of reasoning we'd still think rainbows were supernatural promises.

If minds far cleverer than ours are impressed it's rather arrogant that we aren't also.

No one has said the eye isn't impressive. There are minds far more clever than mine that are theist and minds far more clever than yours that reject religions. What works for me is when someone, regardless of intellect, can explain why they hold their opinion with logic and reason.

I used the miracle of the human eye as one example of a Divine Creator.

And then that divine creator went and designed a worm that lays it's eggs in the eye who then eats their way out rendering that eye useless. Seems eminently logical.

I am breathcatchingly impressed by the wonder and glory and complexity and beauty of the world we live in. Why does that mean I should accept that it was created by something?

Is it not arrogant to think 'ooh the world is so wonderful and it just so happens that it was made by the God of the most popular religion of the time and country I happen to have been born into by chance."

Why not Thor or Wotan?

"Let's turn it round, give me a list of reasons why you think there is no God, without resorting to the old disasters, floods, famine chestnut"

Well, if I want to argue for that corner, I'd have to say those are some of the main issues!

If there were really a omnipotent (all powerful), omnibenevolent (always kind) God looking over us all, do you really think all those things would keep happening?
Real things BTW, happening every day to real people.

In case anyone is confused by my position generally I'd say I'm fairly on the fence regarding theist/non-theist arguments. I think it depends what you mean by God. My DD says I'm a classic agnostic.

Anyway, as Jassy pointed out it hardly seems fair to constrain the oppositions argument so much in setting the question!

No but if you say there are imperfections I'd just love to know what they are.

I said it. But for some reason short sightedness isn't counted as an imperfection in your books.

flawless = without flaw. If I can improve upon eyes, they can't be flawless. Given that an eye that sees more clearly than one that is short sighted is better, it can't be that most eyes are flawless. I have just listed the flaw.

I never minimised the importance of eyes. I said they weren't flawless.

As for leaving people alone, that's what secularists ask. Stop making us pay for schools we can't access.

Bert, so the complexities of DNA are purely accidental. If I was an atheist that alone would have to make me wonder.....as it has quite a few eminent atheists in the past. The alignment of our solar system, the positioning of the sun and the moon are perfect for our planet. The odds of that happening by chance are so remote as to be impossible.....How can anyone take it for granted. Thor if we start questioning all the horrible things that can go wrong with a body....why blame God. Why be so arrogant to assume we should know how God works. Why would we be on this earth for nothing to go wrong. Anyway I've devoted enough time and energy to this thread. We're just going round in circles. I'm going.

Oh I am so done with this thread, it's gone from discussing whether faith schools have a place in the system to people arguing over whether God really exists, it's ridiculous. Look at the end of the day the system is the system and I very much doubt it's about to change anytime soon. The sad truth is if you chose to live in huge cities like London or Birmingham when you already know that they are over crowded then you are taking a huge gamble with your child's education as like many of you have already said, you aren't guaranteed your school of choice.

If your child's education is that important to you then you would surely be willing to jump through hoops to ensure that they get a good education. Whether that means moving to another area, buying/renting a house next door to your school of choice and yes, even attending church (if you really want a faith school education). Some parents, more and more recently are willing to go to these extremes for the sake of their children, if you chose not to then fine but don't get at parents who are willing to do anything to secure their own children the education they deserve.

Why be so arrogant to assume we should know how God works.

But you're the one who claims the God who created it just happens to be the God of the religion you chose.

You also claim that God is interested in people yes? But everything I know about how people show concern for people doesn't match up with how a god behind life on Earth behaves. Kids get cancer an get raped.

People who could prevent a rape but choose not to are not good people. It would be nonsensical for me to say 'ah well, there must be a good and logical reason why that person didn't stop that man raping that child'. It seems you hold human behaviour to closer scrutiny that God?

See I'm not making any claims, I'm just not convinced by yours or any religions claims. If you're suggesting that it's arrogant to want it to make moral sense to me, and that I need to suspend my reasoning when choosing a god, I could end up choosing any God man has ever believed in or even making up a new one. But I assume you want me to believe yours?

It makes more sense for me to wait until I have good reason to believe in a personal God so that if I ever do believe in a god who is interested in me, I don't choose one that's been made up.

Why would we be on this earth for nothing to go wrong.

Seems reasonable to me that things go wrong in a world without an interested deity but to you, don't you imagine heaven is perfect?

"Oh, I'm so done with this thread it's gone from discussing ..." Jersey

I'd say it's evolved quite nicely

Alan I think the standard response about things going wrong would be that God gave us free will, i.e. Creation was perfect but then there was "the Fall" whether that was Adam and Eve eating the apple or a less literal version than that.

My children all go to the nearest school, which fortunately for us is a community school. So I should be happy right, I've got no reason to have a beef with faith schools?

But I do because of all the unfairness and the ridiculous principle of allowing some families to have far more choice than others. The reasons have been admirably and clearly outlined by others on this thread.

However, there are also practical selfish reasons why I object, despite the fact that my children go to a nearby community school. There are dozens of pupils at the school who take up huge amounts of effort and resources due to their difficult home circumstances. I've no objection to my children being educated with such children, but I do object to the fact that my kids' school have all of these children to manage (which does impact on the resources available to the remaining pupils) while the nearby faith schools have none of them.

All these people who say, oh my children's catholic school has some poor Poles and anybody can baptise their children to get in have absolutely no idea of the reality of some children's lives. The parents of these children can't even make their kids some breakfast or get them to school each day, can't get them to bed at a reasonable time, get them up in the morning. The idea that they'd even be able to start on the labyrinthine admissions process for some faith schools is laughable.

A poor kid whose parents are able to get him or her to church every week is in a different league to these kids.

This is tricky at primary but it's even more pronounced at secondary. If you're not religious or musical it can feel like every other engaged family is off elsewhere, while you and the very unengaged are disproportionately clustered in the schools nobody particularly wants.

Oversubscribed faith schools are good because they're selective. A local girls Catholic secondary near us is going to close and reopen as a community co-ed because it's so massively undersubscribed (in inner city London!). How did the special religious moral ethical ethos of that school (claimed as the reason for faith schools' success) work there then?

OK, here's a thing about Christianity that I don't get ..... It's going to be perfectly possible for everything to be perfect in heaven with no suffering (do we still have free will there?) and yet when we have free will here it's meant to be the cause of so much suffering, conveniently meaning God isn't fully responsible for it.

As a friend of mine said isn't it all going to be rather boring in heaven ... all that sitting on clouds playing harps forever?

Given people of faith say we will have an eternity with God in heaven they don't seem to give much thought to what it will be like, compared to the comparative blip of our life here on Earth?

For me, this is it. When we're gone we're gone.
But we can still be lovingly remembered by those we leave behind x

Look at the end of the day the system is the system and I very much doubt it's about to change anytime soon.

nobody is arguing it's the system. That's plainly true. We are arguing if it is a just system, which it clearly isn't. and the reason why it's not going to change any time soon is because those who benefit from the injustice are standing in the way of reform.