To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

"The human eye is hardly flawed"

Mine are. In my family of 4, three of us wear glasses. I think most people I know wear glasses or contact lenses.

Why would you create something that didn't work properly?

The trouble is, if you base your opinions on the injustices of life, eg the super rich sports person, the poor suffering babies it would obviously seem that God is a pretty awful uncaring deity, and certainly give cause not to believe. We are incapable of knowing all the answers to our perceived injustices of the world. But what about all the good things in life, should we ignore all those and just think about the bad. Maybe we've had many many lives and some of those lives are awful to live through, some of them are wonderful. We don't know the answers. Maybe we have to go through so many trials. But, if we accept there is a God we have to accept that a Being that could create the Universe in all its magnificence would not conform to our earthly expectations, and do things in a human way. We are all here for a reason. We have to trust that God knows what is best for us all in the long run.

Bert by that token they'd be no illnesses in the world and no one would ever die. Not really a proper argument.

bigdorrit "the old unknowable evasion" which rankles some is probably quite similar to the old "if there was a god why is there so much suffering" evasion to those that believe. Just as you can find loads of reasons not to believe I can find loads to believe. But really, it's not an evasion to say we don't know God. It's the truth, we don't. But to close our minds and disbelieve to anything that we can't actually see is being a little short sighted imo.

The human eye is hardly flawed

It bloody well is and the main flaws are a direct result of evolution.

theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/the-not-so-intelligent-design-of-the-human-eye/

www.evolutionnews.org/2008/02/proving_dr_novella_wrong_imagi004840.html
Dr Novella can't always be believed.

I don't know enough about neuroscience to say whether Dr Novella has been proved wrong or not. But I do know that if he has been, he will say so!

Just as you can find loads of reasons not to believe I can find loads to believe.

See, here's the thing. I don't need any reasons not to believe in your god, any more than I need any reasons not to believe in Vishnu, or Thor, or Zeus.

Belief in the Christian god isn't the default position, funnily enough. It's quite a curious but common assumption by some theists, that religious belief is a binary choice between their god(s) and nothing.

The human eye is hardly flawed.

hardly flawed? Oh I can think of one easy way to improve upon the eye - make us see more clearly! in fact, we know this is possible. A number of different animals have considerably better eye sight than us.

I am not a biologist, but the eye seems like a good example of evolution: it's good enough. Interestingly, they have not evolved, due to the time scale I assume, to do one of the most important activities today, which is reading. Most of us could not read without glasses.

Ah, the old "he is unknowable" evasion

that argument seems to only be used when talking about the horrific acts of god. There must be some grand plan that our teeny minds can't comprehend.

I am glad we don't apply that kind of reasoning to other humans, say mass murderers, and try and excuse their evil deeds with "we don't know his grand plans!" I guess we just hold other humans to a higher standard than we hold god, which is rather odd.

Crikey, this just screams jealousy and bitterness it really does. If you are not Catholic, CofE or of another faith then why on earth would you be bothered that your child stands very little chance of getting into a faith school? I realise that some parents may be offered a faith school (usually an undersubscribed or failing one) if they, for what ever reason fail to secure a place at any of their other choices but that is not anyone else's fault, you either accept the place or you don't.

For everyone else though who doesn't even want a faith education for their child then you are just going to have to accept the fact that faith schools exist, they are going nowhere and despite what you believe they have the right to put children of faith above children of no faith when it comes to admissions. I expect the most of you are only using the discrimination card as the majority of these schools are thriving, both academically and socially, tend to be ofsted rated outstanding and have excellent exam results, and you feel bitter about your child missing out.

I expect the most of you are only using the discrimination card as the majority of these schools are thriving, both academically and socially, tend to be ofsted rated outstanding and have excellent exam results

Interested to know whether you crediting God with those Ofsted ratings and exam results?

Hey, Jersey- I suggest you read the thread. I might have been a good idea if you had read it before posting, actually- you might have avoided looking such an arse.

I have read it, thoroughly. I'm not an arse I'm simply speaking as I find.

Atheists are asking for some evidence of why you believe
Well isn't that what those creationist sites are trying to do, they can hardly do more. What kind of logical evidence would you expect.
A number of different animals have considerably better eyesight than us
Why would we need better eyesight than an animal that has to stalk its prey?
As for applying that kind of logic to other human beings to try and excuse their evil deeds.....well that's exactly what does happen.
But these horrific acts of God you're talking about.....would that be the God you don't believe in?

No, of course I'm not crediting God with the good ofsted reports and results, I'm crediting the teachers who are obviously doing a great job at educating their children. It's nothing to do with "cherry picking" the best pupils, as was suggested up thread, as after all not all faith schools are in affluent areas were you would I assume the more bright kids would live and who's to say that just because a parent has their child baptised (hence secures their child a place at a faith school) they themselves are bright, enthusiastic and fully able to encourage their child's learning? Poorer less affluent families have their children baptised and manage to get their children into good faith schools despots not living on big posh estates so please stop with the "it's poorer kids who miss out" as that's a load of crap.

If you are not Catholic, CofE or of another faith then why on earth would you be bothered that your child stands very little chance of getting into a faith school?

Because faith admissions deny thousands of kids the ability to go to any local school. Right now, I'm pinning my hopes on a failing faith school, and that all the people from out of the borough who previously felt so strongly about faith education will do what they did last year and decide faith education isn't so important to them after all (as they did last year after the bad Ofsted). Otherwise, lucky us! A 45 minute drive to school when our two closest schools (both CofE) are a five minute walk.

despite what you believe they have the right to put children of faith above children of no faith when it comes to admissions.

Indeed, though you've missed out where they can discriminate between faiths. The question isn't whether they have the right, but whether they should.

I expect the most of you are only using the discrimination card as the majority of these schools are thriving, both academically and socially, tend to be ofsted rated outstanding and have excellent exam results, and you feel bitter about your child missing out

I imagine that you have the ability to read the thread to learn that faith schools only do better when they are oversubscribed and therefore allowed to select based on faith criteria - therefore drawing from a better-off slice of the population, from families that have to demonstrate commitment for a significant period, resulting in a much more well-off intake than their surrounding areas.

If faith education is inherently superior, why do faith schools only do better than average when they're allowed to select their students (or rather select out large parts of the demographics they don't want)?

I do enjoy being lectured about Christian morality, though, when it's clear that the element about caring for the poor extends only just until the moment Christians are asked to give up a little of their own privilege.

I no longer have any horse in this race - the die is cast for my kids (and frankly my kids will probably be ok as they have had a better start than many and parents who can probably compensate for many of the deficiencies in their early education, if they arise (though a 90 minute daily commute to/from school might be challenging). I'll keep campaigning on this issue, though, because of the kids who don't have the privileges of my kids, because I've had my eyes opened to their situation since I became aware of the problems with faith admissions via my own kids.

As a PP said, education is a great vehicle for social mobility. Knowingly putting more barriers to a good local education in the way of the kids who need it most isn't ok, and it needs to be challenged at every turn.

It's clear the Christians aren't going to.

The reason people are saying 'it's not fair' is because it isn't. You're surely not arguing that it IS fair, are you?

Poorer less affluent families have their children baptised and manage to get their children into good faith schools despots not living on big posh estates so please stop with the "it's poorer kids who miss out" as that's a load of crap.

Statistically, unfortunately, you're talking bollocks.

CofE schools are the worst, because they generally have an attendance criteria stretching several years, and CofE congregations tend to be even more well-off, compared to their local areas, than RC ones (though the difference exists in RC populations).

However the fact is that across the board, schools that select on faith criteria have significantly fewer students eligible for the pupil premium than their nominal catchments.

Yes they can select their children based on faith but who's to say these children are superior academically to other local children who go to a community school, just because their parents had them baptised it does not mean they are bright neccesarily.

Where I live there are three Catholic schools, 2 CofE and 3 community schools. The 2 CofE prioritise baptised kids who attend church hence are at criteria 2 after Sen kids but the majority of parents don't attend church regularly enough so most of them end up in category three but still get a place at the school anyway. The catholic schools only require a child to be baptised and don't stipulate church attendance at all.

As there are a lot of children locally who attend the faith schools it has actually opened up more places at the community schools for other children who aren't of any faith. These community schools are thriving just as much as the faith schools so there is no issue. I'm not saying that every area of the country is the same as here but surely if parents of faith send their children to their local faith school that is better for non faith children, as it opens up more spaces at community schools, now if there aren't any local community schools on your doorstep then that is hardly the fault of parents who by chance happen to have a local faith school available to them.