To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

That isn't at all what I'm saying. What I mean is, if I was in a war zone, homeless, starving, with the threat of being killed at any moment, surrounded by evil, not even knowing who the enemy was.....if a group of people put their own lives in danger to save me and my family I would convert to whatever faith they wanted me to. Damn right I would. If that group happened to be Hindu, and my own people deserted me, they'd do for me. But my point is...that is what Christian aid groups do, I dont think it matters what religion you are anyway, as long as you live a good life. There's only one God for all of us.

if a group of people put their own lives in danger to save me and my family I would convert to whatever faith they wanted me to.

Then what you have isn't really faith, is it? Not if you'd give up your god for someone else's gods.

I think it's beyond grim to expect people to convert as a sign of gratitude to someone who's helped them at an unimaginably from time. Thankfully even decent Christian and Islamic aid organisations seem to agree - and there are plenty of secular aid organisations going to help simply because it's the right thing to do, not because they're asking for souls in exchange.

I don't want my 4 year old to have to commute across a county to get to school.

Of course not. And if you do, that's mind-boggling (not least because people are actually defending it).

We left the UK when my youngest was a baby so I'm not overly similar with the system - but I must say, the non-secular system, combined with the culture of exclusion based on religion made me very relieved to be getting away (on that one and only point - I was sad to leave otherwise).

There's only one God for all of us.

Oh my.

Jassy like I said, I was just making a point. Don't take it too literally. Please don't tell me what I have isn't really faith. I would never give up God for anyone. But why try and belittle the work that Christian Aid does. The world would be in a sorrier state without them.

Thedowager have you a problem with that. I'm sorry. I said it so as not to get accused of thinking that God was only for us Christians. But feel free to take the piss.

dawn you can't say I would convert to whatever faith they wanted me to. and then say I would never give up God for anyone.
What if an Abrahamic religion attacked you and Hindus rescued you?

dawn

Do you really not see the conflict between your two statements below?

I would convert to whatever faith they wanted me to. Damn right I would.

and

I would never give up God for anyone

It really sounds like you think others should convert in exchange for relief, but that you never will.

Yougotta do you really think that's what they do. They risk their lives going in to war torn country's and you really think they're going to stand over some poor soul saying prayers and chanting the bible??? Good grief, is that really what people think? Yes we should bloody applaud them. Could you do it?
There's so much badness in the world and killing and strife and yet all you can do is bemoan the ones who are trying to help. Unbelievable.

Ambroxide, that's right, we're neighbours . You are right what is going on in this borough is completely insane: certainly not all to do with faith schools but the determination of our council leader to prioritise imposing a school of his own faith rather than meeting the actual needs of the children in the borough still astounds me.

I really think there are people on threads like this who choose to ignore valid points that make sense, because they can't really answer, but wait to pounce and try and trip people up if they can see a chink in their posts. No it wasn't contradictory, I wasn't talking literally. My point being that, whoever was prepared to risk their lives to save me and my family would be the ones closest to God. It doesn't matter what they call themselves, they would be on the side of good. Surely that isn't too hard to understand.

Yahweh ('God') started out as just one of many gods of the Canaanites in the first millennium BC. Hence the tussles between the first Israelite kings and the prophets.

Dawn, unfortunately many missionaries do link conversion to aid (e.g. telling poor Indian Hindus to renounce Hinduism for cost of treatment for sick children; bibles being handed out in devastated countries (Indonesia straight after tsunami). That kind of stuff puts an obligation on desperate people. I'm not suggesting all missionaries do this. And no one is belittling Christain Aid.

You are speaking from an incredibly privileged position when you say you would convert as you are unlikely to be in that position.

dawn I said my piece much earlier in the thread. Faith schools would be fine of they were an option over and above the state provision. Where they are catchment schools it is not acceptable. If the school at the end of my road was a faith school with faith criteria then we wouldn't get in and I wouldn't choose it for my dc not least because one has ASD and takes things literally.
So I dip in and out of this thread because it's on my TIO. Your contributions seemed illogical when I dipped in.
Ask yourself what you'd do if your catchment school was Muslim. You are not in catchment for any other school. You will be well down the queue for any good or better schools. You have to drive across town every day to take your dc to a school that requires improvement. And fight your way through the traffic bringing children to the Muslim school in order to get out of your road.
So don't make out you'd convert to any religion because they rescued you. You mean the "others" should be grateful that Christians rescued them.

Sashh so I take it by that that you mean out of all the religions in the world that it is only Christians who give you cause for concern? Really??

Nio it means that when I have heard of someone doing something good, eg taking in a refugee child in WWII I have heard it described as 'christian', I have heard the phrase, 'what a christian thing to do' I have never heard 'what a Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu, Pagan, Zoroastrian (insert faith of choice or no faith) thing to do.

this thread has gone a bit bonkers!

The bottom line.

It is patently wrong that people of faith should have a choice of 33% more tax payer funded schools than people without faith. It is impossible to defend this situation logically or ethically. It is ridiculous that a child should not gain admission to a school next door to his house and has to go to a school 5 miles away because a child from a Christian family from 5 miles away takes priority over him.

Which is why Christians tend to sound a bit unhinged when they to defend the status quo. Because actually at some level they know they are defending the indefensible.

Jewish people sound exactly the same when they try to defend the frankly arcane admissions procedures at some Jewish schools, and I am sure Muslims would as well, but I have never heard one try.

Faith schools would be fine of they were an option over and above the state provision. Where they are catchment schools it is not acceptable

This.

My DC can't go to the vey closest school to my house because it's fee paying. I don't get worked up about this, just like I don't fret about my taxes being spent on other peoples children being educated at the outstanding girls grammar school very close to my house when my DD wouldn't be offered a place. I'm more likely to get worked up about my taxes being spent on crap schools which don't educate other children's children particularly well.

Good grief, is that really what people think? Yes we should bloody applaud them.

I applaud only those who help while asking nothing in return. Those who prey on people at their most weak and vulnerable with the purpose of evangelising deserve scorn.

Could you do it?

I can say from experience - yes.

I would convert to whatever faith they wanted me to. Damn right I would

I'm unclear what you meant by this if it wasn't the words you wrote.

But no one has forced you to live in large built up cities such as London, were presumably you know early on that your child stands little chance of either getting into a good school or a local school. It is not my fault or any other parents, who managed to secure their child a place at a good school, faith or not, as they may have carefully planned ahead to ensure their child gets a decent education, ie moving into another area, moving closer to their school of choice and yes, having their child baptised.

No system is ever going to be fair, the point of the thread is that deciding by belief in a non proven being by the parents is ludicrous in 2016. Distance is logical, still not entirely fair but as I said it will never be a level playing field. If you're saying choosing by faith is okay because of the other ways admission is allotted suggests you wouldn't have a problem with any way of allotting. How about we decided based on shoe size or weight of the parents?

I'm sorry, BetOnBlack, but that is totally naive. Have you never heard of people who have to live near where they can get work? And, for what it's worth, state schools in London have shown more improvement than anywhere else.

And it is relatively rare for the only criterion for a church school to be baptism; the majority want evidence of attendance and other commitment to the church. No one says it's "your fault" if someone is hypocritical enough to get their child baptised and spends 11 years turning up at church purely to get their child into a particular faith school. What is being said is that, if churches want to run schools that operate that way, they shouldn't get state funds for the purpose.

I was wondering how long it would be before someone like BetOnBlack came along. No, the situation hasn't been like this all along - as many of us have said the problem has got much much worse in the last 5 years or so. And when 'solutions' are promised - such as new schools - people tend to believe they'll happen. When they're whipped away after four years of planning by an agency most have never heard of - how do you plan for that?

But yes, it's totally reasonable to expect people to give up their jobs and move away from their support networks, take on unaffordable debt or lie to a priest.

Much more sensible to expect parents to do that (those who can afford it - again, it's 'fuck the poor kids' which seems to be the general attitude of those in favour of faith admissions) than say 'hey, our admissions system seems to have gone a bit loopy when this is the result. Maybe we ahoi examine it to see if it's fit for purpose.

(None of the faith schools will take kids on just baptism, anyway. You have to be a churchgoer at a minimum.)

The defensiveness of some on this thread is really interesting. No one's saying it's your fault that the system is working in your favour, dear. They're just pointing out that the system, as it stands, does not work equally in the interests of all children.