To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

What any person of faith wants for their child is not the issue, it's what is available to those of us that haven't got any faith. I didn't want my kids praying, frankly for us it's weird to speak to nothing and promise to love nothing and my kids find it silly and pointless. It's not just discriminatory admissions but also the faith aspect, what atheist wants their kids to be told that there is a God on a daily basis?

My post above was just responding to questions asking whether people who wanted to attend a faith school would be happy to be "discriminated against" in applying to a non-faith school. Posters seemed to think that people wouldn't be happy.

I was just saying that I wouldn't mind, that catholic schools offer something, that to me, is more important than going to the local school, something I would be prepared to travel further to access, and that I don't think I am in any way unique.
Obviously as a catholic, then what they teach and practice as a catholic school makes them preferable to me, that's the entire point. If they didn't actually have that ethos, and just had the prioritised admissions, that would be ridiculous imo. That is why they prioritise admissions, because they prioritise the teaching of religion.

Of course, if faith schools didn't exist, I would just have to suck it up . But since they do, I will go out of my way to use them.

Saying you wouldn't mind and being in the real position of lesser choice is two very different things.

Yes, of course, I can only talk hypothetically.
But there was suggestion that people were only using their faith to get into a "better" school, and just wanted to have the best choice of schools, and they would abandon the idea if the faith school wasn't as good as their local school.

And I was just saying that for me that wasn't the case, that I wouldn't have wanted my nearest, community school (which incidentally, is more oversubscribed, closer to me, and has better facilities and a better Ofsted grading), and that I think lots of people in my position feel the same. Surely the fact that most catholic schools are overwhelmingly full of catholic children suggests that a catholic education is a priority for their parents? Rather than simply a good, local school.

I know that doesn't change the fact that I did have the choice of whether to apply to it or not, and I accept that the situation is unfair for lots of people.

Thank you, INeedACheeseSlicer for answering that question. I suppose the trouble is that even if there were a tick box saying you only wanted to be considered for faith schools, a Christian parent still be able to tick it or not depending on the local provision (i.e. if the community provision were better, they wouldn't.)

The non-faith amongst wouldn't have the option.

I'd like to reduce the number of children ending up at schools other than their nearest, simply to reduce traffic! I would walk my kids 1.5 miles to school (nearest one that offered a place, partly because nearest school is 50% CofE priority), partly because it was quicker than driving - the traffic is pure gridlock from 8am.

As a first step, having all school applicants tick a box to say what if any religion they would like to be counted as (None, Catholic, CofE, Other Christian, Jewish, Muslim, any others that have schools anywhere near), then the faith schools can prioritise whatever proportion of places for their tickbox, and admit in order of LAC, siblings, distance. Get rid of the requirement to attend fortnightly for two years and all that. And then the community schools could prioritise those not eligible for any local faith places for a corresponding % of places.

I didn't want my kids praying, frankly for us it's weird to speak to nothing
Lots of people believe different. It's fair enough not to believe but rather offensive to believers to say "it's weird to speak to nothing". I, as a believer always say, "I believe in God". In other words I accept that some don't believe.
Apart from that, even if you don't believe, is it really that bad if your kids pray. It's hardly going to harm them. They soon make their own minds up what they believe in.

It's not offensive, it's our truth. Religious people don't hold the power of being offended in my book. As an atheist there's nothing there and so praying is for nothing, to nothing and for nothing. Frankly if you're offended it's your business.

And would you like your kids to pray to Allah every day, calling Jesus a prophet and not the son of God?

It is weird for non believers to pray, I find it uncomfortable and dishonest.... therefore never EVER do it. But to ask young children to do it within a school context is wrong, and for non believers it is weird.

Dawn, the post didn't say 'it's objectively weird', it was careful to say 'for us it's weird'. There is a clear difference, and it's in no way offensive for someone to saw that for them, the act of praying is odd.

Apart from that, even if you don't believe, is it really that bad if your kids pray. It's hardly going to harm them. They soon make their own minds up what they believe in.

This is really quite arrogant. Praying at school (and the school endorsing one faith over another) doesn't help children make up their own minds about religion - it shepherds them in a certain direction. You don't think it's harmful, because you think Christianity is the right way, and you're happy to impose that on the Muslim, Hindu or atheist who doesn't agree.

Is it really that bad if your kids don't pray at school? After all, they soon make up their own minds what they believe in.

I also think it can cause unhealthy conflict when a child is basically taught that it's 'good' to pray - and therefore by implication they are 'bad children' if they don't.

Yougotta I've got another:-

What about the c50% of children in the UK who are born outside marriage and are being told that their parents are sinful and going to hell?

because you think Christianity is the right way, and you're happy to impose that on the Muslim, Hindu or atheist who doesn't agree.
Well they'd be happy to impose their beliefs on us if we were living in those country's where those religions were rife. I don't see why we should change just because of those that don't believe. We are a Christian country.
what about the moment when their children realise their parents and teachers have been telling them made up things
How do you know there's going to be that moment. In your opinion it's made up, but you can't state that as fact.

yougotta i grew up going to Catholic schools and can honestly say we were never taught any of the hateful things you have ascribed to a religious background/education. The ethos within the schools i attended (Primary and Secondary) is love one another and treat everyone as you would like to be treated.

Think about it, faith schools would not be classed by ofsted as outstanding or any rating if they were preaching hate and fear, they would rightfully be shut down.

What about the children who are taught to hate people from other backgrounds and faiths?
Really? I hardly think so. Also regarding telling children that to be gay is evil?
I don't know of any school that would do that.
I was brought up in a faith school and we were taught about tolerance.

Are we a Christian country anymore?

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/12036287/Britain-is-no-longer-a-Christian-country-and-should-stop-acting-as-if-it-is-says-judge.html

www.corab.org.uk/

dawn.... wow.

What kind of school did you go to Yougotta that would teach such awful things?

Whilst I'm sure that there are still some schools around who are preaching the more right wing aspects of Christianity, even the gentler 'God is your father in heaven loves you and looks after you' stuff has the potential to cause confusion and conflict. Who wants to be letting their loving 'parent' down by questioning their existence? What if 'he' starts punishing them for being of the wrong religion or not religious?

Dawn, do you think it's fair that people of faith have a choice of 33% more schools than people who do not have a faith?

Dawn, do you think it's fair that people of faith have a choice of 33% more schools than people who do not have a faith?

To be fair, there are faith schools because people of those faiths have decided to set them up. There is nothing to stop you (in theory) setting up your own non-faith school.

Well they'd be happy to impose their beliefs on us if we were living in those country's where those religions were rife

Nonsense. The vast majority of western countries are secular in terms of schooling. Would you rather be associated with them, or with repressive theocracies? It's a pathetic argument - some governments I don't like impose a faith I don't share on the populace, so I should have the right to impose my faith on others here.

This is why secularism is important - a neutral approach, where nothing is imposed on anyone else.

On not teaching that gay people are evil - they definitely teach that gay people are inferior (ineligible to marry, allowed to be discriminated against in employment by the church, etc. See also: women).

We are a Christian country

In which 10% of people attend church regularly, and only around a third believe in any deity.

Bertrand its not fair but i personally would happily tick to opt out of attending non faith schools if that would redress the balance for you.

Bertrand its not fair but i personally would happily tick to opt out of attending non faith schools if that would redress the balance for you.

I'm not sure that solves anything - faith parents would still have more options/ advantages and it wouldn't necessarily solve problems in areas like mine.

I'd rather faith schools were able to allocate faith places based on their annual financial contribution: with 0% of admin and no more than 10% of capital, they might be able scrape together a couple of places in a two form entry school. In schools with mixed intakes, I think the siblings of kids admitted under faith criteria should be included in the faith quota, not the non-faith quota.

Controversially, I also think that the state should be granted ownership of a proportion of the capital value of the school premises relative to the capital the state has injected into those premises since 1944 or when the school was established if after 1944.

I can't think of many other areas where the state spends billions improving assets owned by someone else, for no financial gain.