To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

Having read the whole thread am trying to summarise the questions that those in favour of faith school admissions need to answer.

a) would you be happy for community schools to prioritise those of children of parents with no faith - for instance by checking that a child hasn't been baptised?
b) would you always choose a faith school in special measures or miles away etc in favour of an outstanding community school on your doorstep? Or a Catholic secondary modern in favour of grammar school that your child had qualified for? etc
c) do you think it's right for LAC of no (provable) faith to be admitted as a lower priority than any child of faith?
d) if there is a shortage of provision of places in your area, are you happy for the only money available to expand schools or start new ones goes to a school which follows the 'wrong' religion for your child to be able to go there?

If you answer 'yes' to all these questions, then fine, have your faith schools and the rest of should get campaigning to get community schools to prioritise those of no faith.

Alternatively, we could go down the simple route of making the percentage of faith admissions tally with the financial contribution that the church makes to the school. (Or if that's a pipe dream, then having a cap of 50% as with new free schools. Or even Frank Dobson's 2002 bill to make them have 25% open spaces).

Jelly, that wouldn't have been a choice you could make if the school was over subscribed.

Thankgoditsover- I will be amazed if more than I person answers your questions.

Bertrand, I know, I know and they've been asked elsewhere on the thread, I just thought it would be useful to put them into one post. Perhaps those in favour of strict faith admissions could just ask the questions of themselves rather than answering here. And then if they can't answer a firm yes to every one of them, at least see why the rest of us might have the teensiest problem with such admissions.

(To be honest, I have a problem with faith schools per se, but I think it's better to concentrate on the issue of admissions to begin with).

If you get any answers Thank I'll convert!

Maybe also ask themselves why so few countries in the world have such admissions (isn't it just Ireland, Israel and Estonia or something?). When in Rome do as the Romans do perhaps.

And just think, Posie, you'll have such a great choice of schools if you do that...

I just can't get my head round the blatant faux ignorance. The people in favour of faith admissions can't possibly actually believe the things they are saying about it, can they?

The very existence of faith schools is bonkers to me. Saying that I am fortunate to have parents that aren't religious so the whole concept is completely alien to me. I genuinely think it is as mad as having schools for children of tories, schools for children of labour supporters etc. Utter madness.

BetonBlack
My objection to faith school is about social division and inequality.

These two primary schools are about 5 mins walk apart in London (figures from DoE Performance Tables) close to where we used to live so I know the area well.

Community School
English as an Additional Language 94.2%
Free School Meals in last 6 years 54.6%

Faith School
EAL 34.7%
FSM 18.6%

The Faith school only took children that met faith criteria so no children from the local community.

The area has a large non-Christian immigrant population (including my DH when we lived there) whose children are effectively excluded from the Faith school. Unsurprisingly this leads to a very high concentration of EAL in the Community school. Additionally, it is clear that the cohort attending the faith school are generally from a wealthier background as the FSM figure is substantially lower.

The existance of faith schools is splitting that area into Practising Christian and Other in relation to the provision of STATE funded education.

That is brilliant yougotta, it's so rare to have an example of children of faith being in some way disadvantaged (nothing in comparison to the other way round) but it illustrates perfectly why the system is so wrong.

I actually worked out which school it was (not that many that fit the bill) and it's only a small proportion of places to go to those in the feeder schools anyway. It's not as if the proposed admissions go something like:
LAC from the feeder schools
SEN from the feeder schools
Siblings from the feeder schools
Children from the feeder schools
Anything left over to go on distance.

Rather that some of the places would be reserved for these pupils and the vast majority to go out on the usual LAC, SEN, Siblings, distance etc.

I think it's fine to have faith schools as a choice for parents but they should not select on the basis of religion. Anyone who wants should be able to go there on the usual distance, siblings criteria.

The problem is that these schools have got a reputation as "better" which shouldn't really be the case. The reason seems to be that they have a lot of involved parents.

They don't teach the world is only 6000 years old though ffs, not RC ones anyway.

I'm ok with faith schools selecting on faith grounds for the proportion of places that are church funded. If the church contributes 10% of the budget they get to fill 10% of the places.

I have a massive issue with the fact that my son is unlikely to be able to go to the school 20 metres from his house because they admit any Christian child in the borough ahead of non-religious local children. That is insane

At my kids last school they thought we should all pray at the beginning of thePTFA meeting

yougotta don't worry I won't out you or the school! It's weird that I knew immediately, but then I realised it was because actually there are so few parent-led, non-denom free schools out there.

Will be watching with interest.

I would be very happy as a catholic to have a lower admissions priority for community schools, but only if there was a catholic school within reasonable distance. I would have happily ticked a box on the admissions form saying I wanted to only be considered for my nearest faith schools. I think ticking the box needs to be voluntary though, that's surely more reasonable than checking if you have been baptised or not. Either you want to be considered on faith grounds or you don't, and if you do, you go to the bottom of the pecking order for community schools. I think that is very fair.

I think the main problem is when schools don't reflect the makeup of the local community. For me, there need to be enough local places for people who want a religious education, and for those who don't.
If the only school in a village, for example, is C of E, then that is a big problem, but I think it is also problem if there are no faith schools in a town.

I want my children in a catholic school not because I want to segregate them, but because I do want them to be praying daily, and I want them to attend mass in school time on holy days, celebrate religious festivals and I want them to be taught RE. All that is important to me. I am a bit at the reports on this thread about their child's faith school not incorporating any of those things - I don't see the point of that. Whilst faith schools remain an option in this country, I don't want them to go to a non-faith school, and I am happy to travel further to make that happen.

I think a lot of catholic families would be the same, I don't know about other branches of Christianity.

I think a lot of catholic families would be the same, I don't know about other branches of Christianity.

The thing is that a lot of religious parents would probably feel the same, but really, when you think about it, it's a HUGE indulgence to have your child educated in a school which matches your faith.

• What about all the other faiths (and branches of faiths)?
• How many faith schools would each area need to have to give parents a chance of getting into 'their' faith school?
• How many wasted places would there be because the local reception child demographic that year didn't match the number of places in the right faith school?

There's only one pot of money for state schools and it's a pretty tight one. In some areas there's ridiculous pressure on school places. That's why people get so upset when schools in their local area are effectively closed off to them because of religious discrimination. Imagine if the same happened with doctors' surgeries or hospitals?

And re being prepared to travel further for your desired faith school, isn't that rather selfish from an environmental point of view? Not to mention inconveniencing people who actually live near your chosen school because of the increased traffic? And depriving some children who live near your chosen school of the option of a local school place because they are of the wrong religion?

My children are at catholic school with plenty of other faiths and backgrounds. They currently have a muslim teacher trainee, which provoked a lot of discussion about wearing the veil and other faiths.

Catholic schools these days are far more open and less segregating. I was worried about that before my dc started school. I was going to apply for the local excellent community school, but thought I'd visit the catholic school just to make sure I wasn't missing anything. I was.

"Free" schools aren't much better. We have a local one which is pretty much a state funded private school- the parents set it up in a particular area, and made it small enough so their catchment is only one part of a certain estate. If you're not on the right road you can't get in.