To be sick of people slating Faith schools

[Jenga123]

Don't get me wrong I understand why some people may be against them but the negativity I've come across recently is, quite frankly ridiculous. I've been told by friends of friends, family etc that they pay for my dd's to attend their catholic primary and secondary schools and that tax payers that are paying towards these schools should not have to do so if their children can't attend these schools. Well let me just say the average amount of income tax each individual pays, that actually goes towards the upkeep of schools is minuscule, so they aren't in fact paying for them. Myself and the other parents of my dd's schools pay a considerable sum each year to the upkeep of the school and the school contributes 10% towards the costs of running their school and repairs etc.

I also come across animosity at the fact my children are getting a good education and people putting that down to them simply being baptised. But my point is if they feel that their own children are missing out by going to a less desirable school then I'm sure they could have them baptised therefor giving them a higher chance of securing a place at a faith school, and whilst I'm not advocating people pretending to be of the faith, I'm simply saying there are options.

As for my dd's schools like I said they are Catholic and are obviously places were parents of the same faith opt to send their children as they want them to be educated within that faith, and I can't see any problem with this to be honest so why am I hearing nothing but negativity from people?

I disagree with you, Stripey. You think all schools should be run with your worldview, secular, atheist, humanist? That would be ramming your worldview down everyone else's throats, and influencing other people's children 7 hours a day, 5 days a week, all year, every year, with a curriculum that is taught within the frame of your worldview. No, thanks.

How about all schools, all, with no choice whatsoever, run with a worldview you don't have? And then you teach your children your secular worldview off hours in the evenings?

How does that sound?

You should be able to send your kids to a secular school, I should be able to send my kids to a religious school. The Catholic school I send my son to teaches respect and tolerance for all people, it does not teach division and hatred toward other religions or lack thereof.

Exactly mistress you got to choose. But appear ignorant of the fact many of us don't have the choice of St. Locals do we? Nor are we all happier with the state alternative.

I'd rather get behind banning faith criteria from admissions than lobby my mp to sort out the other dire choices. Because stopping the likes of you being entitled to first choice would be the first step towards improving the latter, and could be accomplished in minutes, unlike the selection by house price criteria which would require more time.

No. I don't think that was what Stripey said. Taking religion out of school doesn't make it an atheist school or one with a different worldview. School should teach all beliefs are equal and none are better so a general worldview. ie RE NOT Catechism

The crux of the issue is that people with religious convictions have a greater range of state-funded school choices than people without religious convictions.

Fairness could be reinstated by creating secular schools that prioritised DC from families who were not religious. Harder to check, however.

Little, do you get that secular and atheist aren't the same thing? At all?

No. I don't think that was what Stripey said. Taking religion out of school doesn't make it an atheist school or one with a different worldview. School should teach all beliefs are equal and none are better so a general worldview. ie RE NOT Catechism

This. The aims of the Accord Coalition (led by a rabbi) say it well:

We campaign to make admissions and recruitment policies in all state-funded schools free from discrimination on grounds of religion or belief.

We want schools to follow an objective, fair and balanced syllabus for education about religious and non-religious beliefs.

We want accountability under a single inspection regime for Religious Education, Personal, Social & Health (PSHE) education and Citizenship.

We believe all schools should provide their pupils with inclusive, inspiring and stimulating assemblies in place of compulsory acts of worship.

JaWellNoFine, atheists want to insist that schools and government are run completely in a secular way. That means they want everything run their way, that's why they like it! Secular schools are not neutral, they are operating within the worldview of the underlying assumption that there is no creator but that there are groups of people with belief systems and faith, with the curriculum often couching these beliefs as myths that ancient people believed in before the era of scientific discovery which infers that a modern world would no longer hold to these views. The definition of secular is having no religious or spiritual basis, that is a worldview that is distinct in itself, it is not neutral at all.

The definition of secular is having no religious or spiritual basis, that is exactly why the atheist wants secular government and schools. The atheist lives his life in a secular way, with no religious or spiritual basis. The two terms are closely connected.

I missed this gem:

The Catholic school I send my son to teaches respect and tolerance for all people, it does not teach division and hatred toward other religions or lack thereof.

It's modelling divisiveness fairly effectively, isn't it?

By their acts, etc.

The definition of secular is having no religious or spiritual basis, that is exactly why the atheist wants secular government and schools

Not quite. Secularists (many of whom are people of faith) want schools (and other state affairs) to be neutral on the issue of faith, promoting no belief or lack thereof above another.

Secularism is the state of being separate from religious affairs. To quote the National Secular Society (who might be expected to know):

Secularism is a principle that involves two basic propositions. The first is the strict separation of the state from religious institutions. The second is that people of different religions and beliefs are equal before the law.

Most secularists hold that secularism protects both believers and non-believers.

Who's The Atheist?

LittleBeauty- I don't think you understand what secular means.

There are people of faith in UK that want a secular education system. Some atheists do too, not all though, probably.

The nation with the highest proportion of believers in a higher authority (i.e. a god) is the USA, and even they have a completely secular education system.

tinofbiscuits

Faith schools can recruit based on faith, and they do.

You may be employed in a faith school as a person of a different faith but you will never become head of year or any other senior position, ot because of your teaching ability but because you are not part of the faith of the school.

A Sikh friend worked in an RC school as a supply, she was told they would be happy to keep her on until they found an RC teacher.

I'm in the US and yes it's secular in theory. It's really hard to practice though because nearly all the holidays are based on the Christian calendar. I would be much happier as a parent if our DC were introduced to other religions apart from Christianity and Judism.

At work we had a multicultural lunch where we all had to bring a dish from our home country. We have a Muslim and Sikh on our team. No one apart from me had a clue about their religious background. I was simply shocked and then realized it's because they just don't teach religion in school. It's no wonder the foreign policy here in the US is so poor!

As for people not liking the religious schools, I think everyone should have an equal chance to attend. This whole attending church etc is a waste of time because most parents probably stop the day after their first child gets in! Also I think all schools should be following the curriculum on body and spirit when it comes to religion. Everyone should have their holidays celebrated. It's a great learning opportunity for the children and parents too (never knew about the Armenian genocide until it was celebrated by my friend so I looked it up and learned something).

It's entirely possible to have a national secular education system, without the sky falling on your head.

It's even possible to learn literacy and numeracy, without a side serving of religion.

If you wish your children to learn about your faith, then you raise them in your faith. Don't offload that responsibility onto a school.

I had the misfortune to watch some idiot called Hamza try and argue, to Peter Tatchel, that secularism imposed itself like faith.

This just indicates a fundamental lack of understanding about what it is. It, as describes below, avoids any religious privilege and therefore is great.

Fascinating that "If going to a faith school is so very important to you, you won't be applying to any non faith schools then, will you?" is being ignored as well!

In my town, 6 primary schools are c of e and 3 are catholic, both preferring their own faith, any faith, then none. There are 2 community primaries which don't discriminate against those of no faith.

This is unfair.

To everyone who opposes faith schools and who would like to abolish faith criteria within admissions, why exactly do you want this when the majority of you have already said that you would never send your dc to a faith school anyway? I realise that in big cities were schools are heavily oversubscribed some parents may be offered a faith school if they haven't managed to secure their child a place at any of their choice schools but no one will force you to accept the place and send your child there. There are such things as home schooling, private educating or appealing for the schools you've failed to get your child into. So for parents to say that they want the faith criteria taken away when they have no intention of ever sending their child to a faith school, well there is absolutely no need for it and it just makes you all out to be bitter and rather envious, neither of which are appealing qualities in a person.

BetonBlack

I think it's perfectly clear why people would like to get rid of them. They are discriminatory and they are state funded.

why exactly do you want this when the majority of you have already said that you would never send your dc to a faith school anyway

Because it's not just about us? Because some of us care a little bit about the impact on children who aren't ours, and the society our children grow up in?

Faith admissions are divisive, segregate by religion (and to a certain extent by race and class), cause traffic problems and exclude children from getting a local education.

But I'm also happy to admit self-interest. As I've said, I'd prefer not to send DS to a faith school, but if he gets into one of the local ones I'll be overjoyed. I would very much like my child to attend a state school that isn't half an hour away in the car when there are three schools within 600 metres of our front door. Fingers crossed that the bad Ofsted one of the faith schools has had dissuades some of the 'I suddenly found God' brigade so local kids get a look in for once.

Interestingly, none of the people asserting their right for the state to pay for a faith school for their children are very interested in the right for non-Christians to send their children to a non-Christian school. (Christian schools making up 99% of faith schools, which in turn are a third of all schools in a country where 10% regularly attend church.)

bet look at my post immediately above yours. Most parents don't have the resources for private or home (requires a sahp for at least the primary years). What do the non religious do?

BetonBlack, do you think it is fair that people of faith have a choice of 33% more state funded schools than people without faith?

My daughter goes to a Catholic school and isn't baptised, we picked it because it was genuinely the best school in our area, and it is very mixed with Muslims and non-Catholic students attending. There was no question asking that in her enrollment forms, simply consent forms for taking them to chapel, outings etc. They do include Confession, Communion and Confirmation dates in the calendars.

Neither me or DH are overly religious, he was raised Catholic, I'm baptised protestant but didn't practice, but we will ask her if she wants to be baptised etc in a year or two.

Admission criteria in my area give priority to the nearest school. My nearest school is a faith school - at last look 270 of the 275 places went on religion (others were cared for ) - so we wouldn't get in- we would then be bottom of priority for other schools - how is this fair?
Faith schools get funding from state and church- hence the performance levels- its also seen as a backdoor means of class selection.
Faith schools as well teach often their religion in a different way than secular schools - its not taught as a belief but as fact.
and I find it incredulous that they are allowed to be discriminatory in their recruitment.
I considered the attend church/lie route tbh but it is just immoral in my books. So I joined the National Secular society instead to campaign against this (partly triggered by the news where restrictions are going to be placed on the ability of people to complain about this)