Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

fascicle - re "That's one way of trying to argue transwomen shouldn't exist, Cote."

I haven't said anything of the sort. Please don't act like I have advocated mass murder. All I said is that "female" is a biological description and that there is no other way to be female but biologically, which is fact.

Do I have to post dictionary definitions again?

Tabsicle - Where is the transphobia?

Tabsicle & fascicle - Are you related?

tabs the definition of 'phobia' is a type of anxiety disorder. It is an extreme or irrational fear of something

It is ludicrous to suggest that women discussing the impacts of the redefinition of 'women', on women, is 'phobic'

I think at least this thread contains people being honest about their transphobia, and has made me realize how very far we have to go as a society

How predictable.

How lazy.

Clearly I'm not reading this thread from the perspective of a transwoman, but the majority of the discussion is measured and argued out, which flies somewhat in the face of the rampant misogyny of a lot of transactivism sites, where threats of violence and rape seem quite commonplace. As a woman, I find a lot of those sites and the criminal behaviour they propound extremely offensive. And if we are going to get precious about it, sex is also a protected category under the Equality Act 2013 so neither group trumps the other. I think transactivists need to get their own house in order before browbeating the likes of Mumsnet about having a pretty measured discussion about the implications of the transagender movement for women's rights.

transactivism sites that threaten rape and violence are commonplace? is this true? I'd be shocked if that were the case

Plenty of examples to get you started on terfisaslur.com and upthread, though if we're going to get all pinchy about semantics, some of them are social media sites. Kind of semantic though, as the intent is still to shout women down and close down debate of these issues.

CoteDAzur - no, but I can understand the confusion.

As for the rest, if you can find me another word which describes anti-trans prejudice/bigotry then I'll use that instead if you find the 'phobia' suffix distracting. 'Transphobia' is just the word I know. Although I think there has been a fair dollop of that around here, what with the talk of bathroom rapists and the like.

tbh I do think some of what has been said on these IOC threads has been transphobic...not least that if a transwoman wins gold in a womens event at the olympics that is the end of all womens sport at all levels and girls will never do exercise again.

That comes over pretty damn transphobic.

A few transwomen in the olympics really aren't going to end sport for girls in school....they really aren't.

But having said my piece, I know that it is basically a waste of everyone's time for me to keep replying. I guess you guys have the right to your views and I have the right to my opinion on those views.

I just kinda felt like I had to say something, just to register how I feel.

Well, thanks for sharing your feelings, but it would help if you point out where you see bigotry or prejudice.

I certainly hope it wasn't my posts, because those are actual dictionary definitions of the words male, female, man, and woman.

Do you want to extend your piece to include an opinion on whether it is fair for transwomen to compete in female categories in sporting competition? T'is the point of the thread after all.

Dismissing the bathroom thing as a non-issue is easy (for either side). This topic isn't, and I dare say many have found themselves with an opinion that doesn't come particularly naturally to them (that of excluding a group of people who, in other contexts, may benefit from added protection and a whole lot of welcoming acceptance.

I refuse to take the 'transphobia' label when I would never individually discriminate, and am happy to speak up and openly support/defend those transpeople I know. Heck, I don't personally give a fuck about the bathroom thing.

But this is rather more nuanced a topic, I think.

"if a transwoman wins gold in a womens event at the olympics that is the end of all womens sport at all levels and girls will never do exercise again. That comes over pretty damn transphobic."

If transwomen start breaking women's records, that will be the end of women's aspirations, yes. I wouldn't say no girls anywhere would exercise again. I would say they would probably not be drive to work hard and break records if they feel they just can't.

Take running. Paula Radcliffe's 2:15 marathon record is unbroken since 2003, whereas men's marathon record has been under that time since 1963. What do you think will happen to women's marathon record if a top Kenyan runner with a 2:02-2:03 personal best decides that he wants to be a woman?

There is a reason why sports are sex segregated. If women were made to compete against men, they could nearly never hope to be a top athlete in any sport they practice.

These are legitimate concerns, not transphobia.

IceBeing, this will in fact be the end of girls' sports in schools and at club level. It is already an issue in American schools, where students who are really good have their sights set on the Olympics. My DCs' high school is a feeder school for the US men's wrestling programme, and another school in the same region feeds into the US women's water polo programme. Maybe the UK isn't so organised and maybe school sports are not where it's at, but this will have a huge effect in the US.

Also in the US, infiltration of men into school sports for girls will have enormous ramifications for Title IX and what it promises for girls' athletic scholarships, equality of funding for girls' sports in universities and protection of girls from sexual harassment and hostile university environments.

That doesn't matter, Maryz. It's only women who are being trampled over, after all.

Maryz
Because transwomen will reply 'but we can't be women phobic because I FEEL with my little lady brain, therefore I am a woman'
Ignoring the fact that no real biological women have a lady brain, we just feel like people with vaginas

See, I feel offended and diminished by the trans stance, that you are a women because you feel like a woman, because of your brain, your preference of dress and activities. Because I'm not feminine, I doing have a last brain or a 'lady job'. I object to being called CIs or fish or TERF, or phobic actually for my very legitimate concerns for scenarios that are actually happening. That sounds like misogyny to me actually

After the horror show of the IOC decision. I'm stupidly excited by the start of a female afl league in Australia aflnswact.com.au/first-female-academies-to-be-launched/
2016 will be training and working out where the teams are then 2017 the comp will launch

Well, thanks for sharing your feelings, but it would help if you point out where you see bigotry or prejudice.

I certainly hope it wasn't my posts, because those are actual dictionary definitions of the words male, female, man, and woman.

For some reason I feel like I should comment on this Cote It's just my viewpoint but I feel some might think you as being transphobic is that you claim absolute knowledge of things that many will see as nothing more than opinions. It's your opinion that biology is an absolute. It may not be the opinion of others.

May I also point out that having looked at the site posted by RomCom I am indeed quite very shocked by some of the twitter posts. I see a lot of aggression and threats. On the other hand I do feel behind the aggresion and threats there may be a lot of pain and anguish coming through when one reads between the lines. In many ways it's just in the same pain and anguish that I see when I read between the lines in this thread
.

For some reason I feel like I should comment on this Cote It's just my viewpoint but I feel some might think you as being transphobic is that you claim absolute knowledge of things that many will see as nothing more than opinions. It's your opinion that biology is an absolute. It may not be the opinion of others

Sexual dimorphism in humans is a fact
That 'female' and 'male' are biological descriptors is a fact
That women have been oppressed by men is a fact
That women are at risk of violence from men is a fact
That male anatomy and physiology give them an athletic advantage over women is a fact

I feel some might think you as being transphobic is that you claim absolute knowledge of things that many will see as nothing more than opinions
That's not transphobia. At worst, it's arrogance. I see it as a statement of fact.

It's your opinion that biology is an absolute. It may not be the opinion of others
I don't think this sentence is as simple as it looks. Am on my phone too, so this is likely to ramble and contain no discernible structure!

What do you mean when you say that biology isn't an absolute?

Is it simply acknowledgement that there is variation in the system? Such events don't necessarily invalidate the system. I work in genetics and sometimes see unexpected biological outcomes - this doesn't mean Mendel was wrong. Not every person falls into a neat category of biological sex, sure. But most - the vast majority - do, even those who are 'intersex'. The only way to argue that sexual dimorphism is a myth is to expand the definitions of biological sex in a way that doesn't match what happens in the bazillions of individual organisms that populate this planet nor the isolated nuclear DNA I work with at my bench. Are we really willing to see females with PCOS labelled as 'intersex' to support a political campaign? Do post-menopausal females become intersex? I've got small boobs and a few hairs on my upper lip - am I intersex? If biological sex is a construct, I should be very surprised today when I find that putting a male mouse in the same cage as a female mouse has resulted in baby mice?

That biology is absolute isn't surprising. The definition of a male and of a female is biological. It has to be absolute, not philosophically but semantically and etymologically.

What you might be saying, I think, is that the way we assimilate maleness and femaleness is open to interpretation. I agree. As far as I'm concerned, males make sperm and females make eggs. This feature is not always predictable by DNA analysis, nor by morphological inspection. Most of the time, it is though. If aliens came to earth and studied the entire cohort of newborns on the day they landed, I believe that sexual dimorphism (based on morphology and DNA analysis) would be one of the first conclusions they'd draw.

Hmm, will stop as this probably isn't particularly coherent now. Will get back to my computer soon.

Sorry, just thought that you might mean that bio sex isn't the right marker to use for sporting segregation?