Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but something I find interesting is how 'transphobia' is compared to anti-homosexual sentiments of a decade ago; i.e. that it will soon be seen as utterly outdated and old-fashioned. The problem with this analogy is that it seems to me that many people now labelled 'transphobes' are quite different from those who are or have been bigoted against homosexuals. Certainly it seems that many of the people on the Mumsnet threads about this were originally very supportive of transsexual issues, and many of them liberal, feminist individuals who support diversity and oppose exclusion. Yet many of us, through increased familiarity with the situation, have become increasingly concerned and have questions to raise about what this means for feminism (if we take away the definition of gender as socially constructed) and for women (if access to women's spaces becomes a question of 'identity'). If anyone can find an example of someone who started out as, say, pro-gay rights but then had a turnaround, that would be very interesting, but I'd also be very surprised.

I guess it highlights that 'transphobe' / 'bigot' (and the comparison with people biogted against homosexuals) is an interesting and quite problematic label, because it communicates a sense of unthinking, stuck-in-the-mud people who have perhaps not thought about the issues enough and just need to be better educated on the subject and to make an effort to be empathetic. Whereas I think many people who would be labelled 'transphobes' (myself included) started from a place of great empathy, but whose concerns have grown with greater 'education' on the subject.

"Yet many of us, through increased familiarity with the situation, have become increasingly concerned and have questions to raise about what this means for feminism (if we take away the definition of gender as socially constructed) and for women (if access to women's spaces becomes a question of 'identity'). If anyone can find an example of someone who started out as, say, pro-gay rights but then had a turnaround, that would be very interesting, but I'd also be very surprised."

This.

The gay rights movement was (is) very much about the desire to have one's personal and private choices respected--not about forcing everyone else to redefine the way they described themselves.

There is also an increasing about of tension between the trans movement and many of the traditional elements of the gay rights movement.

The standoff between gynephilic late-transitioners and lesbians, for one thing... and the way in which some late-transitioners are throwing tantrums about traditional aspects of gay men's culture, such as drag and burlesque.

Then there is the fact that early transitioners and feminine-presenting gay men seem to be kind of the same group or different points along the same spectrum, meaning that when society/families/doctors start subtly pressuring more of these boys to transition, they are (in a way) "disappearing" gay men. I know that Alice Dreger (who has written about these issues a lot) recently said that she is getting a lot of impassioned emails from gay men, saying "If all this stuff had been going on when I was a young boy, I am pretty sure my parents would have come under pressure to send me off on the transgender train. But since my teens I have been a happy gay man, and I have no desire to change that."

mathanxiety I don't see why small changes at the elite level equate to all girls giving up sport. The majority of girls currently doing sport already know they will never make elite level...so why would a slight reduction in that chance make them stop?

Most people get into a sport because they enjoy it...and that enjoyment outlives the inevitable death of their olympic dreams.

Hell, some women even take up sports after the age at which they could ever become serious contenders on the world stage....

So I don't think the statement that transwomen competing in the olympics will halt all female sport is a fact at all...and if it isn't a fact then it is transphobic to trot it out as if it were a fact.

Good grief maryz that is more than a little horrifying. I will never laugh at the jokes around here that we can up our percentage female academics by funding sex changes ever again.

I don't think the statement that transwomen competing in the olympics will halt all female sport is a fact at all...and if it isn't a fact then it is transphobic to trot it out as if it were a fact

I agree that it's not a fact that all female sport will end. I don't see why one saying they think this will be the case is transphobic though.

It is a fact that born males will retain an advantage in the vast majority of sport - predicting a very bad outcome for all women is no more transphobic than you predicting there will be little effect is women phobic.

Regardless, even if it only impacts a small number of elite female athletes and potential scholarship recipients, why is that ok?

whoiscis.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/will-we-be-more-vocal-as-gay-men-if-trans-men-start-demanding-we-sleep-with-them/

From the FB group

The whole point of feminism was to stand ground to stop men taking everything for themselves. (Land, capital, glory etc)

Now scientific and medical advances have made it possible for men to become women (with a load of gaslighting discourse). Women now find themselves sleepwalking into a situation where men can take everything for themselves again. By becoming women.

If a man wants to present as a woman, fine no problem, but can't they be proud of being a TransWoman rather than demanding they are the same as women?

By demanding men and women are all the same, men are once again able to take gold medals, world records, top jobs etc from women.

TW have disadvantages of their own and needs of their own.

TW also have significant male advantages over women in body mass and strength, height, arm length, bone structure, no pregnancy, breastfeeding disadvantages, no female disadvantages whatsoever. Their false breasts don't have the same sensitivity etc etc etc because they are Transwomen.

This needs to be respected and acknowledged otherwise men will be able to use their physiological advantage to take everything for themselves all over again.

ice are role models not important??

What, when TW aka men are holding the gold medals? Where are the athletic role models for girls?

No no, its not going to happen over night is it. It of course will be a slow creep. But by that point it will be too late. One man competing in women's sports is too many IMO.

This is the crux of it. They are not women. I can't even believe that intelligent people need to have these discussions

It will spell out the end of women being able to win at elite level.

Real women being able to win.

Everyone is being duped so badly... it's quite bizarre how women are being erased and one, not even most women, seem to notice. We're so busy being "accepting" that we don't realise we will lose overall.

noone not one

And we don't want to be made to accept men as women. We don't want to expand our definition so that is meaningless and strips us of protection

Those that don't object, or very often being passive due to ignorance of the situation.

And that is not fair

So we are raising awareness of actually implications for women

And we are objection

how is that bigoted??

Here's a question.....

Muslim woman arrives at an airport in full face covering, she will show a woman her face for ID and security.... she's given a TW... can she still refuse?

Will the left spontaneously combust?

What about the effect on women only swim sessions?

I'm one of those who has really had my eyes opened on this subject and I think it's really telling that those calling this discussion 'transphobic' haven't really backed up their opinion through any form of logic or argument thus far.

Sorry I just blurted out the question, mid thread.

Posie

I've wondered about that but r.e. doctors. I understand that you can currently ask for a female doctor or nurse if you would be uncomfortable being treated by a male HCP. Will it become transphobic for a woman in distress, who might - for whatever reason, be it abuse, discomfort, cultural concerns - not be comfortable with a male-bodied person examining her, to state that?

That used to be a common question. Standard trans-allie answer is that it is a stupid hysterical question/it won't happen/it will happen so rarely as to not be an issue/stop being trans phobic, they ARE women/would you object to a butch lesbian/think of how difficult a situation it is for the TW/how very dare you

binky I think it is transphobic to say that women will stop doing sport if transwomen are allowed to compete at elite levels - because it is scaremongering and very likely completely untrue.

I think it is transphobic/sexist to say that only women can be role models for other women/ girls. I am personally way more inspired by the antics of Andy Murray than Serena Williams for all sorts of reasons. And I took up my favourite sport because my Dad played.

I think it is transphobic/sexist to say that girls will give up sport if people born men win in the women's competition...while at the same time saying that we all know already that men can outperform women in the vast majority of sports. No new knowledge is turning up then is it? Girls already know that men/boys can out perform them in sport and they will know it again in a new format.

I think it is horrendously unfair on professional female athletes that with no warning or say their dreams of olympic gold are potentially threatened by what is certainly a ridiculous ruling by the IOC. They have every reason to be against this ruling and to say so loudly. Extending the argument to say every other woman on the planet has also been disadvantaged is transphobic hyperbole.

But school systems in a number of countries are now allowing boys who say they are girls to join school girls sports teams, on very much the same grounds as the IOC 'society has moved on' essentially.

That means that it's not just at elite levels that girls will get pushed out in favour of female presenting men.

And role models are important, plenty of research that says that people who don't see themselves represented assume that they cannot succeed or will not be welcomed. Why are black actors getting pissed off by the lack of recognition at the Oscars for example?

If female success gets replaced by trans women success then that is a big issue. And already happening in other fields. Like the best paid 'female' CEO in the States. My ds just couldnt see that this was not a success for women, because sheès a woman. Does that mean a woman won the decathalon nowÉ