Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

[fidel1ne]

Also a plug for the FB group

www.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS/

thecat have you not heard about Swyer syndrome, or XY gonadal dysgenesis? It's a syndrome where women are born with xy chromosones.

I don't feel that these arguments are silly, or unreasonable. These are real women, I know I would feel violated and isolated if I read this thread and I suffered from these particular syndromes. I don't think they are any less valid, or less important than any other women.

Unfortunately it doesn't appear to end there either, not all women who have periods, experience the same sort of period pains. Some of us give birth in a matter of minutes or half hours, others take days. Not all of us can breastfeed or even want to. Perhaps they should be the next group to exclude from this ever decreasing definition of what a 'woman' really is..? I don't know so with respect I disagree

But these women will have some shared experience. Unlike men or transwomen

Claudia, so what you are basically saying is that people shouldn't ever speak about women's experiences with menstruation, pregnancy etc, because that will "violate" and "isolate" some women who haven't had them and can't. And that we're not allowed to use the experiences as an argument for common experience of women as a class because of that reason. That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

I stand by my view that it is a deeply silly and flawed argument.

Claudia
Women with chromosome abnormalities who look female and are raised as girls have shared womanhood with xx women
That's hardly the same as a male person raised as a boy who identified as a woman

Your argument about birth being different etc is fatuous and I can't be bothered tbh

would like to know how many females in the world have ever known the male experience of an erection
I once had an incredibly vivid dream that I was a man shagging a woman. I felt it, I knew what it was like to have an erection.

Oh, is that not how it works? Males who have experienced erections wouldn't accept my feeling and my knowing?

The dream bit is true though

"have you not heard about Swyer syndrome, or XY gonadal dysgenesis? It's a syndrome where women are born with xy chromosomes."

Do you not understand the concept of a SYNDROME? Hint: It refers to a DISORDER or an ABNORMAL CONDITION.

"I don't feel that these arguments are silly, or unreasonable"

Pointing at a disorder to invalidate the shared biology and experiences of the vast majority *is( both silly and unreasonable.

Venus no please accept my apologies if that is the impression you are getting. That's not what I'm saying, there doesn't seem to me anything wrong with discussing menstruation, pregnancy or any particular subject. What I am trying to illustrate is that the awkwardness of this matter comes when attempts are made to exclude people from taking part even if it is only a passive taking part in the conversation. It costs nothing for us to take on board that not everyone is the same as us and give them some space and leeway to become part of the group

I wouldn't want to exclude myself from any trans woman's experiences because I feel they can enrich understandings of what it is to be a woman rather than take them away.

Now I said that maybe I am prejudiced but I don't feel that people who have penises should be considered as women but again I try to remain open minded

I think of Pulps 'common people', the rich student decides to live the life of someone with no money, but she's a 'tourist' because she doesn't have the lived experience of someone with no money and can always go back to having money if she wants.

Claudia I don't think you understand the term intersex and the very wide number of conditions that it covers or you didn't read my complete post.

I've been watching a series that was recommended to me by a dear friend recently about trans women in an american city I do forget which. Maybe it is worth watching the episodes are only 10 minutes or so long

How the fuck can a transwoman enrich my understanding of what it is to be a woman?

Sorry I'm out of here (before I punch my computer screen).

Now I said that maybe I am prejudiced but I don't feel that people who have penises should be considered as women

Are you aware that most trans women keep their penis?

Why is that worth watching Claudia?

I don't feel that someone who has been socialised as a man does much to enrich my experience of womanhood, thanks. Particularly when they insist on shouting me down and telling me not to talk about common female experiences because it "excludes" them. Perhaps they can just sit that part out then.

"attempts are made to exclude people from taking part even if it is only a passive taking part in the conversation"

When were these people excluded from the conversation, do you think? Not around here, not ever, ime.

"It costs nothing for us to take on board that not everyone is the same as us and give them some space and leeway to become part of the group"

Nobody said "everyone is the same". We said that women share biology and experiences. Some women have disorders or abnormal physiology that means they don't have exactly the same biological experiences as the rest of us, but they are still treated as girls and then women by society.

Transwomen share neither our biology nor our shared experience of socialisation, and therefore they are not biologically women nor have they been shaped/molded into women throughout their lives.

"I wouldn't want to exclude myself from any trans woman's experiences"

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by not wanting to "exclude" yourself from someone else's experiences. Are you not excluded from their experiences, by definition?

button it's worth watching because this is a thread about trans issues..?

These are real women, I know I would feel violated and isolated if I read this thread and I suffered from these particular syndromes.

Two points. One, the appeal to women to be nice, be empathetic, move over, don't hurt feelings is what go us into this Double Speak Hell to start with. Two, women aren't generally the ones using intersex people to make a spurious point about people who DON'T share the condition(s).

See, there's your mistake. Its not about trans-issues Claudia. I understand they have issues and I wish them nothing but peace and happiness, but I have zero interest in their issues.

This is about women's issues, and protecting our rights and spaces

I don't want to watch shitty American dramas about dating and abuse and crap

This ^^

Cross post, I'm too slow! I was agreeing with MrsT, but I agree with Shortcut too. I think trans issues have very little in common with women's issues.

with respect, the thread title is

Continuation thread re IOC/trans policy and related trans issues

"Trans issues" in the thread title does not refer to "problems of trans people".

Is it not clear from the content, that the thread is actually discussing the impact on women's sports and wider impacts on women; rather than the nuances of transgender romantic and social relationships?

IOC - International Olympic Committee.

Can't get much more sporty

Wow claudia. A program with a storyline where a transwoman wants access to refuges and so they're trying to change the law?!

Fucking hell. No.