To agree with this headteacher regarding wearing pyjamas as outdoor wear?

[MaisyMooMoo]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-35413153

I think core parenting is providing a stable, loving home for your dc, loving them and making sure they grow up to be kind, polite, thoughtful people. Wearing pjs on a school run has no bearing on any of this. Just to reiterate, the children were appropriately dressed for school, so their parents are fulfilling their responsibility to teach the dc how to dress for 'work'.

I wouldn't wear pjs to school - it is not the norm where I live, but I can see the appeal tbh. Like it or not, it is important to defend the right of people to do as they like and ignore the judgements of others - that's what freedom is. The right to live as you please, so long as it is within the law. The HT can disapprove, but she doesn't get to dictate.

i get the logic.. and the message in 'its everyones right to do what they want.'

However... in a full bodied, rounded ......HOWEVER.......

the ONLY WAY this statement works, is if everyone pays their way and is equal in society in terms of input, output and value.

my frustration comes from my working since i was 14... yet because of this' 'everyones right' concept, we are taken for a ride...

i didn't have kids till i knew i could afford them... i didn't put myself in a position where the risk was there....

you are aware we pay benefits to brits living in luxury abroad...
we pay benefits to brits who marry EU citizens and that EU citizen can claim benefits back to EU.

(i am a big EU fan....and not in the least racist.... (my kids arent white))....

however its the mentality of 'its everyones right' which is feeding this public frustration...

i'm sorry but its not everyones right.......

its my right to be angry when my tax contributions are given to people who cant even be bothered to get dressed for important school events..

its my right to be frustrated when they are defended using the same premis... even though we ALL KNOW the system is broken.

if they contribute equally, then they have every right.... if there are legitimate medical reasons behind not working then they have the right...

...but...

if they are exersizing the right just because they can..... then ouch.. that touches a nerve.

So people are only valuable and entitled to the right of freedom, if they are contributing to society in a way that you deem to be valuable? No, just no!

You are making major assumptions about these parents based on what they wear, which is fundamentally wrong. You don't know how they support their children, or what kind of parents they are. Given that their dc are in education, on time and in uniform, it appears they are doing a decent job.

As it happens, I would agree that people shouldn't choose to have children with no means of supporting them, but your view takes no account of the fact that people can fall on hard times through no fault of their own and need support not stigmatising.

The beauty of freedom and democracy is that individuals don't get to decide who is a worthy human being.

So, if they are in full time employment and earn enough to pay tax, then it is OK to wear pyjamas?

Surely daytime pyjamas are either sartorially offensive or they aren't?

If Bill Gates decided he wanted to visit a school naked, would we all have to put up with this, because he has been hugely successful and given a lot of money to good causes?

not at all... if people on mornings or on occasion then of course its acceptable... everyone has days like that... after all I'm not Stalin.. peoples lives are difficult.

But to goto public events expecting to be accepted is very different a proposition.

Its nothing to do with earnings... its to do with self respect and being a role model.

I know the school and I work in an organisation that knows the area well. Ive never earned over the uk ave wage.. i've been unemployed and have done 'god forgive me' - door to door sales for commission only... so trust me when I tell you I know hard times...but Ive never gone in pajamas or would even entertain any of the excuses...

Its a stretch... but a heightened version of 'everyones right' in practice vs 'what is right'....

• multiple people took selfies outside the cafe with members of public taken hostage.
• we expect more and more sensationalizing and programmes are becoming more inappropriate
• we are now idolising 'celebs' with NO DISCERNIBLE TALENT

its the jamie oliver school gates issue where kids were passed fish and chips n protest.....disgraceful...

Sorry Ive moved conversation onto something else.... but I honestly think it is connected to a wider social/cultural issue the UK is seeing..

in response to bill gates... would he be where he is today if he was brought up a different way.

i cant prove his lawyer father or director mother never wore pj's to a parents evening but i doubt it.

its more than just the picture we see that makes people who they are....

splreece - well said.

Do you live in the UK splreece? Only we don't have 'custody' of children here so it made me think you live elsewhere.

If you know this school then you will also know that this is the cultural norm for this area. As I mentioned upthread, people go to the pub in pyjamas here (I live about 20 miles from the school in question). Believe me, these people are not unwashed and have not made no effort (double negative intended). There is all manner of hair coiffured hair, make up, false eyelashes etc that go alongside the pjs. It's a 'thing'.

But you seem to be making huge judgements based solely on just the picture.

People are confusing 'rights', 'liberties' and 'responsibilities'.

Parents may have a 'right' to dress as they please, and therefore a 'liberty' to do so, but they have a 'responsibility' to instill in their children a sense of self-respect and an attitude to life that can only come as a result of self-discipline - and that starts with getting up in the morning ready to face the day.

I presume that the parents who have a problem with this have low self-respect or self-discipline themselves.

Is it an area of high unemployment? If it has become the 'cultural norm' for that area then I think the head teacher is right to be concerned.

Despite my posts, I atually think it is ok to judge and disapprove of poor behaviour falling short of law breaking. Where I draw the line is praying authority in aid because you don't like something that in fact harms no one but the person themselves. That's a slippery slope that erodes civil liberties.

Social judgment on other hand is part of how we build a decent society. I disapprove of smoking around babies, being rude to waiters, parking your buggy in the way of the door, etc, etc, and I may or may not express this disapproval depending on the circumstances. All things that are lawful but they have a negative impact on others.

However, and this is a massive however, social judgment it's also how class divisions are built and maintained and you have to be pretty sure you're not using lazy shorthand when you're doing your judging. I maintain that wearing pjs harms no one. If it did, it would be open to any one of us to point this antisocial behaviour out. You wouldn't need a headteacher to assume dubious authority to clamp down on something that merely offends your sartorial sensibilities.

But that's the point - the children are in school, on time and appropriately dressed. Therefore the parents are preparing their dc for 'life'.

Just because the HT doesn't like it, her views are not automatically right and the parent's views automatically wrong. What makes her the authority? Are you saying that mc opinions should hold more weight?

For me this is very much connected to liberty. Rule of thumb for me is that if an action is legal and not causing harm to other people then it is a matter of personal choice.

Xposted with longest, who said it better

In my city there are certain areas where this is a norm. They are washed, full make up and have very nice matching pyjamas/dressing gown/slippers. Men do the same. In the Sure Start there isn't one (adult) person in outdoor clothing.

splreece - do you not think national publicity for daytime pyjama wearing is a symptom of this tendency to sensationalise inappropriately and try to make massive value judgements on the back of cosmetic appearance? The nation is being invited to judge people they have never met and know nothing about. Do you not think that a little bit tasteless? I cannot muster up hatred for people I don't know on the back of the fact they have been seen wearing pyjamas in public. Yet some people really seem to love being encouraged to vent their spleen and categorise people in offensive ways. Daytime pyjama wearers do not all fall into one feckless little group - you have said as much yourself. And who is most hurt by such lazy, national shaming of different types of people? The truly feckless, who don't give a toss and love the publicity, or the already genuinely struggling and vulnerable?

And the example to children thing is a red herring unless the behaviour in question is genuinely antisocial. Children being taught to wear pyjamas in public might not feature in the constitution of the world according to longest but I think I'm going to have to put it in the bucket labelled "things I don't like but can do nothing about" along with dogs that have silly haircuts, the use of comic sans and adults calling their mum "mummy".

'round about the town'... Well said... I do agree.

Ive worked in marketing for many a campaign so i know why certain pills r red n yellow and some white
Or why its always a mid 30_40 s white middle class woman with no bins in her white n minimalist clean appartment eating special k.... I do get it..

But something still asks me 'what would an average person do'... The adjusted fit and proper person test
Its for directors ideally but same principle.

Would i do it or appreciate it.. What if the person were job hunting or meeta someone od influence who could help or employ or direct them. I dont except the statements simple cos isn't it about being prepared for the unknown and preparing kids for unknown.

I wouldnt have got my last 2clients had i not been smart and tidy at the school. How many opportunities are missed because people exercise their right to dress down... Then whine about standard of uk employment or school conduct or their own kids.... I know the harlepool area... I know its got an unemployment issue.... What i dont get is why the majority od people still say what is morally acceptable rather than being honeat and what is right.

Whats to say if people made an effort to present themselves that things may happen... I'm movcing the subject on again. Apologies.

You may well be right that the parents who dress this way could be passing up opportunities. Particularly if other people continue to make judgements about character, based on fashion choices. The fact remains that they have the right to lobe as they please and it is not for the HT to tell other adults how they should dress.

lobe = live. No idea where that came from.
My issue with this isn't really about the wearing of pjs. It's concern at the notion that some people feel they have a right to tell other people how they should live, based on their own prejudices, along with the notion that some people's opinions (the HT) hold more weight than others ( the parents) outside of the context of their job.

NN unfortunately schools are increasingly having to step in and fill the parenting void. There are any number of 'infringements' that we'll all have to endure to protect children from feckless parenting. Now that schools have banned chocolate and soda in lunchboxes, it's not such a huge leap to ban PJs or perhaps suggest that you're not bathing your children enough.

It's modern Britain, innit.

Splreece, you are completely right to intuit that the fashion is about thumbing the nose at middle class values. But people have a right to do that. Punks did, the Rolling Stones did, there are some sections of the American Republican party that think the Pope does.

You are completely wrong all the same to assume that people wearing pajamas out and about are all literally lazy layabeds, and if they are all so lazy surely wearing shell suits or even jeans and tee shirts wouldn't change that?

'Pajama fashion' google images search result. It is definitely a thing. Look at the runway shots. Street fashion trickles up it seems.

A search for 'shopping in pajamas' illustrates the prejudice against the fashion and its association with the lower orders/ 'people of Walmart' memes, etc.

Vanity Fair notes that 'Carol Burnett Rocks Bedroom Slippers on the SAG Award Red Carpet'. The article includes a gallery of celebrities sporting the 'dormcore' look.

In the case of pajamas the related example of the Birkenstock plus socks trend for MC teens is relevant -- comfort trumps elegance. Thumbing your nose is not the only pose pajama wearing offers.

Sorry to the pajama haters, bit it looks as if they will be around for a while.

NN, I agree.

Splreece, Britain is a funny old place sometimes. On the one hand people splutter about the immaturity and lack of responsibility of large sections of society, the poor choices made by so many people, etc., and on the other hand schools dictate to grown adults what their children can have in lunchboxes and in the case of this HT, what they can wear. Children are forced to wear school uniform that is in many cases ugly or impractical. The link between treating people as if they are imbeciles incapable of making solid decisions and people behaving like imbeciles is not examined.

Schools do not 'have to' step in and second guess or preempt parental decisions. Setting up a confrontation among values is guaranteed to cause or maintain resentment and encourage the damaging attitude that school is something imposed on children and families.

Mathanxiety....

Please dont scare me like that.......i would be gutted is someone rocked up to work in a comfy, yet socially acceptable pair of pjs to work or to an interview...

I may have to conceed even though am 35 im out of my time here..... Saying that... That poasobly explains why i dont do Facebook anymore... To many couple's arguing over fb... With their kids pn as friends seeing th whole shebang...

Whatever happened to chinos, suits, ties and a blacktie theatre x