To think that the 'Calais Camp' situation needs to be resolved ASAP!

[Kreacherelf]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3413566/Port-Calais-closed-migrants-storm-harbour-make-Spirit-Britain-ferry-desperate-bid-reach-UK.html

This is just getting ridiculous now. France need to take this problem to the EU and ask for help dealing with it immediately. It has gone on for too long and needs to stop.

I don't know what the answer is. I think the UK should take anyone under 18, and their family members. Other than that, everyone else should have to apply for asylum in France or risk arrest. Not a perfect solution, but the only one I have.

Try it again, I reposted it.

It's just a list of books, they aren't vouching for them of course. But the idea is certainly out there in the pubic domain.

My GF's point was that war is a racket, not that his comrades were traitors.

BillSykesDog all sorts of dodgy stuff goes on in war. Just because you can't in a couple of minutes imagine how they did it doesn't make it impossible!

My GF also told me of unscrupulous shop owners who would send out ships that shouldn't be at sea, hoping they'd sink because the war insurance was good money. Despite there being crew aboard.

*ship owners not shop owners!

That refers mainly to neutrals, and otherwise corporate and financial collaboration. None of it refers to anything like as outlandish as boats full of allied sailors collaborating and trading with the Getmans.

Mainly - but not all.

I think it's interesting that instead of wondering about what really went on, you're finding ways to dismiss it our of hand.

If you don't want to believe it that's fine, but I don't see any reason not to.

It's a bit of a derail at any rate!

tangerine In any war, you will find there will probably be a bit of economic activity even across enemy lines. That will apply even more so now because our financial system is pretty much built on globalization.

I think your GF spun a tale though because something doesn't add up.

Bill, there are a lot of very different countries and cultures in the ME. Generalising about them seems a simplistic approach.

Yeah, which is why I used words like 'can be' and 'more likely' emily, but as usual you're just reading what you want rather than what's actually written.

And it still doesn't change the concept that perceptions of what is ordinary or good, or bad differ hugely from place to place. But why engage with the point when you can just do some irrelevant whinging.

"In the ME 'good' is much more likely to be defined as ..."

That's generalising, no?

Generalising would mean claiming something was more widespread than it actually was. That's not really the case here. I didn't ascribe it universally to the ME, just pointed out it was likely to be more prevalent. With the exception of Israel I really can't think of anywhere in the ME where it's likely to be broadly untrue. If there are secular humanist democracies in the ME that I've missed I'd be interested to hear about them. But the ME is mainly composed of Islamic theocracies or monarchies with Islamic based value systems which differ from those in Europe but have a lot in common with each other.

Pointing that out is no more of a generalisation than saying that value systems in S America are more likely to be derived from Catholicism or Indian ones mainly from Hinduism in most areas. Or that traditional European value systems have their roots in certain Christain concepts and traditions.

What you're both really trying to say though, is that even though it's quite widely accepted that close geographical areas tend to have similar value systems which are more closely related than countries which are far away, you just want to make a PC 'you can't say that' point because you don't actually know how to challenge the actual point made. Which is both predictable and tiresome.

Yes indeed I do think we should get behind Assad, as he's the less of two evils. It's not up to us to go for regime change of a leader/dictator we don't like. It's a breach of international law, extremely irresponsible, and likely to make matters far worse in the long-run... Do you think funding the likes of ISIS (like we're doing now) is better then?

What do you suggest then emilybohemia ? Co's it's going so well now -- eh?

War IS a racket for many. There were lots of people who got rich trading black market goods in WW2 - or any war. However, the idea that an allied ship and a German ship came alongside one another in order to swap contraband during the war is utterly and completely ludicrous if you know the first thing about the war that was fought at sea between the allies and the nazis. Believing this cock and bull story your GF spun you and then telling it to other people just shows your ignorance (and yes, I have history degree).

As for all the economic migrants, sorry economic PEOPLE in Calais, many of them are there because the smugglers who brought them to Europe spun them a bunch of lies. That 5-min clip of David Davies in the camp that someone posted up-thread included Davies meeting some Iraqis who were stuck there because apparently no one had told them that they couldn't just breeze on into the UK, as they'd breezed through all the other countries en route. They didn't realise that they'd need a visa or papers of some kind giving them the right to enter the UK.

I've heard in the past of migrants, sorry PEOPLE, reaching Calais and not even knowing they had a 20-mile stretch of sea to cross to get to the UK. We're not generally talking about well-informed people. I doubt they know anything about the UK, most of them, just whatever stupid stories and hearsay they've picked up along the way.

"There were lots of people who got rich trading black market goods in WW2"

That may well be what he meant.

The idea of two naval boats trading has been inferred by other posters.

I didn't ask for details.

Al I know is he said he saw Allies and Germans trading and that he saw it in his time at sea. I know nothing about the context, nor if the people were military or civilian / merchants.

Anyway I'm not going to post more about this as it's a massive derail!

The thread is nearly full now anyway.

21.36 "He used to say "All war is a racket" and told tales of how he witnessed Allies & Germans secretly trading out at sea". You're right, it is a massive derail, and ended up, again, being unable to be adequately supported. You've filled up this thread with tirades of such nonsense, but ultimately could not answer 3, very direct, very succinct questions. You spin a good tale Tangerine, but I wonder if anyone who came onto this thread has had their opinions changed?

Not me.

Are refugees people like us? Of course they are?
Are economic migrants people like us? Probably most of them, but there seem to be an awful lot of them who are prepared to break the law. Breaking the law is not a good way to further your case and persuade a country that it should let you in.

As for Allies and Germans trading at sea... It seems hugely unlikely. The site you linked to talks about the neutral countries trading with Hitler (which they were entitled to do legally, whatever you think of the moral stance) and about French firms making an accommodation with the occupier, and about Ford in Germany, which would have been legal before the US imposed sanctions in 1940/41.

I wouldn't be remotely surprised to find out that SOE teams were infiltrated into Norway using vessels marked as German: that might have been the start of this whole story. (I am quite well up on the SOE).

Anyway, total derail.

""In the ME 'good' is much more likely to be defined as ..."

That's generalising, no?"

It's a reasonable generalization, though. Look at the data taken from surveys of the ME region for questions like, say, "should wives always obey their husbands?" or "is it morally acceptable to be homosexual?" and so on.

Western morals are more likely to be grounded in ideas like, "does it harm others?" and so on, rather than being based on religious texts.

What about Catholiscm in say Poland or Ireland? Or Evangelical Christian ideas of 'good' in America?

My GF also told me of unscrupulous shop owners

side by side tapping out stuff.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3424677/Why-Labour-union-flags-flying-migrants-stormed-British-ferry-Uncovered-footage-shows-Unite-banner-port-Calais-hours-Corbyn-visited-Jungle-camp.html

Massive coincidence that Corby just happened to be there isn't it. God help us if he wins the next election.

Ha used to say "All war is a racket!" and told tales of how he witnessed Allies and Germans secretly trading out at sea.

The idea of two naval boats trading has been inferred by other posters.

Well how were they trading out at sea then? Jet skis? Floating in rubber rings?

"What about Catholiscm in say Poland or Ireland? Or Evangelical Christian ideas of 'good' in America?"

They're a problem too. But religion is rapidly waning in Ireland and the US, and to be honest I wasn't really including Eastern European countries like Poland within the definition of Western.

Religion is a declining force across most of the west.