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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To think that the 'Calais Camp' situation needs to be resolved ASAP!

999 replies

Kreacherelf · 24/01/2016 14:20

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3413566/Port-Calais-closed-migrants-storm-harbour-make-Spirit-Britain-ferry-desperate-bid-reach-UK.html

This is just getting ridiculous now. France need to take this problem to the EU and ask for help dealing with it immediately. It has gone on for too long and needs to stop.

I don't know what the answer is. I think the UK should take anyone under 18, and their family members. Other than that, everyone else should have to apply for asylum in France or risk arrest. Not a perfect solution, but the only one I have.

OP posts:
clam · 29/01/2016 17:45

Just how do these deportations work? Particularly if the migrant resists? Are they manhandled onto a plane? And if the Danes/Swedes are talking about filling plane-loads, what on earth happens if all of them riot on the plane? Would you like to be on that flight (not least crew?)

Moreshabbythanchic · 29/01/2016 17:51

I think they are talking of chartering planes just for the deportees but surely they will need to have numerous security on board too. This is not going to go well.

AllTheMadmen · 29/01/2016 17:52

Its very worrying that many more could be allowed in by claiming to have siblings here as the latest 4 have

The judge said those four without doubt had unusual and extenuating circumstances. In which case its absolutely the right thing to do and let them in. I do not doubt that some law abiding people in that camp are genuine and do need proper help.

Just not every single one of them.

AllTheMadmen · 29/01/2016 17:53

batshit

get behind Russia?

Well we are trying to work with Russia but it seems he is wiping out any future opposition to Assad. He said he is happy to have elections and if people vote assad out, then so be it.

So he is bombing and killing anyone who may actually do that.

I think putin is right up there with scary mad dictators right now.

clam · 29/01/2016 17:57

Someone on one of these threads pointed out that Calais is nothing to do with Britain. It is a camp in France, and therefore it is up to the French how they deal with it.

Food for thought.

Moreshabbythanchic · 29/01/2016 17:57

I think putin is right up there with scary mad dictators right now

Sadly there are too many of them now and I don't know who's side to be on, I just know who's side not to be on.

BeckerLleytonNever · 29/01/2016 17:57

I wouldn't move to Saudi Arabia as I don't agree with their way of life. If you choose to move to the UK, then you fit in with our way of life out of respect.

^^this, and that goes for everywhere in Europe.

emilybohemia · 29/01/2016 18:24

Batshit, you think it's a good idea to get behind Assad who is bombing and killing the people of Syria?

SnowBells · 29/01/2016 18:40

The thing is I do get where Russia/Putin is coming from.

In one of those conferences (can't remember which one - one of the many meetings of all the world leaders), Putin kept on asking Obama whether he has someone in mind to replace Assad. If he can tell him who, they could discuss it.

Putin obviously knew what would happen next. Obama couldn't give him an answer.

And that's it. It was sealed from Russia's point of view.

And to be honest - it was the right thing to do. You can't fight two enemies in one country. If you get rid of Assad now, you will create a power vacuum that's just going to make things worse.

I'd say - fight ISIS first. Once that's done, you can go and find someone to succeed Assad. But without having a suitable successor... don't try toppling him.

The US makes this mistake soooooo many times. They always think they're doing the right thing by removing a dictator, but then, whoever comes after that person becomes the next evil dictator.

AllTheMadmen · 29/01/2016 18:46

What do you suggest emily ?

Id love to hear a workable plan because of course the best minds in the world struggle to come up with one, whats your idea?

I know you have the benefit of crystal balls and special sight?

Do enlighten us?

snowbells

Yes of course that's the only option - perhaps....its scary..I do feel Putins tactic is to now, destroy the rebel groups and opposition so when the time comes, there is no one left to vote against assad, then Putin will say " look we had fair elections, and no one voted for anyone else but...assad.."

januarybrown1998 · 29/01/2016 19:41

It is a camp in France, and therefore it is up to the French how they deal with it

You'd think so.

But there are groups who want to co-opt the migrants for anarchic ends, so they make it a British issue.

this lot for example.

shins · 29/01/2016 20:58

David Davies is great. Well said. I'd link to it on social media but I'm too tired for provocation this evening. Depressing but true that his words could be seen as provocative but there you are.

WidowWadman · 29/01/2016 22:12

"If you choose to move to the UK, then you fit in with our way of life out of respect."

Bollocks. Obviously, you need to obey the law, but that's about it. What does "our" way of life mean anyway? Do you expect people really to give up where they come from altogether? The language, the festivals, the food, the stories, the songs they grew up with? Fuck that. My children were born here, and I guess their British identity is dominant, but I make damn sure that they know where their other roots lie. And that they speak my language, know my stories and songs and festivals. Doesn't mean we're not integrated. And I wouldn't expect anything else from anybody else no matter where they arrived from.

Justanotherlurker · 29/01/2016 22:26

An interesting interview with Paul Collier in de went, that although not directly related to Calais is along the lines of this thread

Translation here because I don't think some users use google translate.

DIE WELT: Currently, 60 million people are on the run, as many as never before since the Second World War. Nevertheless, to warn you that this exodus may be only the beginning. Why?
Paul Collier: One has to distinguish clearly. In this refugee crisis, we on the one hand deal with failed states like Syria. The people who flee from there, it's about survival. Here we are talking of about 14 million people. And then there are those who live in poor countries and make their way to the rich western world, in order to find their happiness. These are hundreds of millions of people. A huge mass that once on the move is hardly controllable.

DIE WELT: We have to face that half of Africa gets on the move?

Collier: The chaos in many African countries increases definitely. The former World Bank economist Serge Michaïlof presents the thesis that the region south of the Sahara could be the next Afghanistan. There live about 100 million people, and especially in Mali and Niger, the situation is already very unstable. And then there comes the German chancellor and says that Europe's doors are open. Think about it just once, how these people perceive that.

DIE WELT: You mean Angela Merkel is to blame for the refugee crisis in Europe?

Collier: Who else? Until last year refugees were not a big issue for Europe. I still do not understand why Mrs Merkel has acted that way. She has so definitely imposed a huge problem on Germany and Europe, which now also no longer is so easy to solve.

DIE WELT: Will the cost Merkel chancellorship?

Collier: That I can not answer with the best intentions. But what I can say: Through her communication she has turned refugees into migrants.

DIE WELT: That means?

Collier: It's simple: Germany obviously likes the savior role. But it does not border any of crisis or war countries. All these people who have come to you made it from safe third countries. Germany has saved not a single Syrian. On the contrary, Germany, despite your best intentions rather is responsible for deaths. The matter has gone completely out of hand. Many people understood Merkel's words as an invitation and then made it to the dangerous path, sacrificed their savings and entrusted their lives dubious thugs.

DIE WELT: Then Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's right, if he wants to protect Europe by fences and walls from the onslaught of the masses?
Collier: I'm not interested in any way what individual politicians say. But borders and fences are certainly not the solution to the problem.

DIE WELT: But?

Collier: There must be a radical shift in the communication. Europe must make it clear that want-to-be migrants into affluence do not need start the journey. And the refugees who want to get to safety, can not do that in Europe, but in the neighboring countries, just as it is defined in international law. The principle that safe littoral states to provide protection must necessarily apply for two reasons: Firstly, the refugees come to security the neighboring country in the simplest, without getting themselves unnecessarily in danger. And when there is peace again in their homeland, the refugees can also easily go back and help rebuild.

DIE WELT: However, many refugees in Germany seem to want to settle down here in the long term.

Collier: This is too often forgotten in the whole discussion. Mainly the comparatively well-educated and relatively prosperous start the journey of immigration. Exactly these people will not go back again, once they have taken root in the West. The crisis countries are then missing precisely those people who they need most urgently for a stable future.

DIE WELT: But Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan can no longer shoulder the load.
Collier: I've been to one of those refugee camps in Jordan. Life there is not great, but bearable. And just that is what counts. We need to help the people who have left their homes unvoluntarily. But they are not not entitled to a place in the affluent European sky.

DIE WELT: To make it but very simple.

Collier: No, not at all. Of course, the emerging markets should not sit on the costs of refugees. It's definitely a matter for the rich countries to compensate them for it adequately.

DIE WELT: Then do you like Schäuble's proposal of a Marshall Plan for the countries bordering safe?

Collier: Absolutely, that's exactly the right approach. Lynchpin however, it is to bring all these people back into jobs. Currently the refugees have no real perspective in the large refugee camps in Jordan and Turkey. If you get them in jobs on the spot, disappears the incentive to move to Western Europe. Who creates jobs also has some control over the refugees. Fences or other hand, protection money for Turkey are less effective.

DIE WELT: Who's going to create those millions of jobs in Jordan?

Collier: The German economy is virtually predestined. German companies have en masse shifted jobs to Poland or Turkey. So why not to Jordan?

DIE WELT: Because it lacks the necessary infrastructure, among other things, market outlets and trained personnel?

Collier: Jordan has even specially established economic zones, which are well developed. You also need not be a nuclear physicist to work in a factory. The Syrians are no worse qualified than the Turks.

DIE WELT: If it is so easy, then why argue about Europe border security and refugee ceilings?

Collier: Europe leads the completely false debate. The European Union is not responsible for the reception of refugees. However, it is responsible for securing its own borders, either jointly or, if that does not work, then just every single state of their own. I do not understand is why this is controversial at all.

DIE WELT: Because the Schengen Agreement, one of the key achievements of the internal market, would inevitably be carried to the grave.

Collier: Schengen's long been dead. And you know what: This does not matter. My native Britain is not part of the Schengen Agreement. I can not see that that would have any disadvantage. Schengen is only as a theatrical symbol of Brussels politicians. They want to pretend something like a European state. But Schengen has nothing to do with Europe. What matters is that we can travel to the other of a country. And that goes without Schengen.

DIE WELT: Exporters within the EU disagree. They fear enormous rising costs when border controls are in place again.

Collier: I do not believe that argument. When I travel to continental Europe, before I show my passport that lasts ten seconds and more effort is not. It is important that you can travel freely, and for that you do not need Schengen. It is quite simple: Each country is responsible for securing its own borders. You cannot just enter Botswana as well. Why should it be any different in Europe?

DIE WELT: So will Europe not break on a possible end of Schengen?
Collier: Europe will not break. That's all an exaggeration. The problem will be solved. Either by the States or by common national solutions

DIE WELT: In your book, you have warned that too many immigrants endanger the social fabric of society. Especially after the attacks of Cologne, is this danger becoming reality now?

Collier: I do not think so. People will realize that the influx was only the consequence of a major policy error that will be corrected. But surely it will be difficult with the integration. This is more difficult the more migrants are in one country and live together in a confined space. Because then decreases the need to really culturally and linguistically to open up for the host country. As a result, hard to control parallel societies emerge.

DIE WELT: Examples abound. But which countries that have well solved the problem, Europe could take as a model?

Collier: The US have used immigration for their advantage. Also Canada and Australia are examples of good integration. Both countries pursue a highly selective immigration policy. Canada taking about only 25,000 Syrians - and only families, no unaccompanied young men. That way, many of the problems Europe complains about now do not arise.

Justanotherlurker · 29/01/2016 22:29

Would help if I provided the link

hd.welt.de/Wirtschaft-edition/article151596264/Deutschland-hat-keinen-einzigen-Syrer-gerettet.html

OneWingWonder · 29/01/2016 22:30

WidowWadman

'Do you expect people really to give up where they come from altogether? The language, the festivals, the food, the stories, the songs they grew up with?'

No one could care less if immigrants keep hold of their food and their songs and their stories. It's when they keep hold of attitudes and ideologies that are fundamentally opposed to our own that we have a real problem: hostility to freedom of speech and thought, to women's rights, gay rights, Enlightenment values in general.

'And I wouldn't expect anything else from anybody else no matter where they arrived from.'

What I would expect, more than anything else, is a sense of loyalty founded in a basic gratitude that a country has provided the new arrival with a home and a life. If that's too much to ask, then they really shouldn't come at all.

OhforGodsake · 29/01/2016 22:31

By all means widowwadman it's absolutely right that your family should know and understand their heritage and appreciate their roots. No one would suggest otherwise. But I think that what other posters are saying is that people migrating to another country should also understand and respect the traditionsame and social conventionsciences of the host country. This includes respecting that European women may dress in more revealing clothing than you may have experienced in your own country, but that does not mean that they are sexually available. Respecting that public swimming pools and other public places are not open opportunities to grope women and children. Such behaviour leads to public outrage such as seen in Germany and Sweden. And on Mumsnet p,

WidowWadman · 29/01/2016 22:40

Ohforgods - groping is sexual assault and I clearly stated anyone should obey the law.

LumelaMme · 29/01/2016 22:44

Fitting in?
Some of my roots lead to me to cook and eat rather a lot of curry, and tell my DC convoluted stories about the community that goes back to, and bore them to tears with complicated genealogies.
But I think of myself as English.

OhforGodsake · 29/01/2016 22:56

Sadly widowwadman not all immigrants to Europe accept that, hence the current outrage and backlash. As pp said upthread, no one cares one way or the other that you practice different religions, sing your own songs or eat different food, that isn't the issue, as I suspect you well know. The real issue is of failure to respect the new cultures of the host country, refusing to learn even a little of their language and integration with your host society. You say that you do all of these things but a great many people entering Europe do not and that's what is causing so many problems and creating such ill feeling

shins · 29/01/2016 23:04

Yes. My gran-in-law spent 47 years in London and brought up her children there. She went back to Ireland as an old lady and never thought of herself as English. But her children are and she would never say a word against the country that gave her family a better life than they would have had back home. She has no time for Irish people whingeing about English oppression and playing the victim card when it's obvious Ireland was some kind of a failed state for decades after independence, unable to support its people. I know there are bigger cultural leaps for some people but I would expect a level of gratitude and respect for a place that would give you and your children a better life to be a given.

emilybohemia · 30/01/2016 00:37

The outrage and backlash ohfor is from hate and prejudice, not from immigrants not respecting culture. Look at how many native Brits don't obey and hae no respect for anyone, it's hardly an immigrant thing.

HelenaDove · 30/01/2016 00:54

Emily ppl are concerned about the misogyny. I mentioned Catholicism and the Magdelene laundries as an example of misogyny and i do wonder if the people who objected to those laundries had been silenced or there had been an attempt to silence them by cries of anti Irish or anti Catholic and that silencing had been successful i fear that there would be M. laundries in operation today.
But this was another point you have been happy to ignore.
And its a subject i know a lot about having been brought up in a Catholic household. My mum isnt from the UK She emigrated from Naples in 1960.

What do you mean by obey?

HelenaDove · 30/01/2016 01:04

Me and my DM have got on well for the past couple of years, but the culture clashes were damn hard to deal with as a teenager.

When my aunt (her sister) was dating my uncle there was a chaperone on every date. This was in Italy.

My mum met my British dad in the UK so there were some constraints that she didnt have. But when i was a teen i wasnt allowed to visit a boy
I was going to be sent to a catholic girls boarding school but in the end they couldnt afford it.

I cant really say any more

DG2016 · 30/01/2016 01:06

Yes, as said above it just depends on the impact on the rest of us. If we have enough housing and money to allow some refugees in and they obey the law then that's fine. The Jews of Stamford Hill have never caused us any trouble - they are sexist and segregated but they are few and do not have an impact on the rest of us. Whereas sheer numbers of other immigrants is affecting some people in cities. I am often the least covered woman around - it is that changing of the culture. My son was the only feminist on his table at school recntly. He is the only white boy in his class this year. He had a really good intese argument with all those boys whose mothers kow tow to the father, don't work and all the rest. Now I did say weven if you were with a group of Etonian teenage boys you probably wouldn't find a load of feminists in there as teenage boys are not known for that inmost cultures but it was an example - same with homophobia - if just about everyone in your class at school thinks the sin of sodom deserves death or whatever that is a huge cultural shift without your having moved a meter - as if you've been moved without your consent to rural Pakistan,. The position is utterly different in areas like the NE where I am from where in Northumberland 97% of people are white atheist or Christian so the problem is the sheer numnbers, not that the British are not happy to have amongst us small pockets of different people - we don't mind the latter.