To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

Personally I think there will be significant abuse, given how common other performance enhancement is.

Also, the MtF transsexuals I've seen after one year of therapy still have a transgendered appearance, so I imagine the downsides are not significant if you don't actually want to transition - you might just look like a slightly effeminate man.

Plus, I imagine you could give up the hormone therapy for two years between Olympics if you wanted to?

DP works in a very male orientated job. Skilled manual work outdoors. He's worked with women who are good at thier job. Some of them brilliant. But even at the peak of their game, balls to the wall, working as hard as they can they are physically only as good as the mediocre men.

They don't have the physical strength to lift as much, carry as much and do it consistently throughout the day as the men do.

He actually prefers it when there are females on the 'gang'. He said they usually more likely to turn up on time, not fuck around during the day and generally more reliable than the blokes. But physically, no match.

Nature will out eventually.

MrTiddles in my view the only fair way of doing this is they either compete as a male, create a third group for transgendered or they don't compete at all.

Thank you for the answermrsgrady, it didn't even occur to me to make a third group.

Do you think it would be more acceptable had they been living as a woman for a longer period of time? Because surely asking someone who has lived as a woman for 5+ years or longer to compete as a male, or denying their existence as female is unfair?

Again, genuine question as I'm just trying to form my own opinion on it all. I do understand the fundamental arguments behind this all and do strongly agree that this could so easily be abused for male gain.

Men and women's sporting competitions are completely binary in assumption, aren't they? However you work it, it will disadvantage/disadvantage/exclude some. A biological norms binary excludes women who are hyperandrogenic, like Duttee Chand I linked to below. A self assigned gender binary might favour transwomen.

Yes, of course you are being unreasonable. Unless you genuinely think that in 50 years time every female sport will be dominated by a 6' 10" born man with a pair of fake breasts. Maybe I am naive or have a little more faith, but clearly this will not happen.

Sports do not need to 'dominated' for them to be very difficlt and uneven places for females to compete. And when one starts to train for a sport at 5, 6, 7, 10 or whatever one has no idea who will dominate! But surely one should have the expectation of a level playing field.

Will male athletes who decide they are women after winning male only events - like Bruce Jenner - count as females having won those events, I wonder?

Does anyone know what testosterone level a M to F transperson could hope to achieve after surgery? Before surgery?

Yes, I looked up guidance for GID clinics while I was doing PCOS. I'll do anything to avoid the washing up.

Before castration, they should aim for 10 nmol/L. Afterwards, their levels should be reduced to the same as a pre-menopausal woman.

As a side note, they are to be kept at the overall hormone profile of a pre-menopausal woman throughout life, health permitting - which is a bummer, since post-menopausal female women aren't allowed that option!

To the poster who asked if anyone has a solution. Yes, they can run, throw, cycle with their born sex.

Fine, live as a woman, dress as a woman, wear make up, kick your heels up. But why doesn't that mean you lose all common sense. Why insist you have to run with the women. Sports is biology at its raw basics. How fast, strong, talented your physical body is. Therefore we group 'bodies' into their born sex to make it a fair competition. Hurt feelings shouldn't mean we ignore all that and let people compete where they like.

Pantone353

Absolutely

whatdoIget Shit that Fallon Fox link is appalling, so very tragic.

Charming Need.

And why the disablist language?

whatdolget I've just read that link - the MMA fight sounds absolutely horrific. I didn't realise this was already happening.

I know. I made the mistake of googling pictures of fox, and Tamikka Brent's - the woman she kicked the shit out of, taken prior to the fight and it's just scary. Fox is not that much taller than Tamikka but just obviously a lot more muscular, and very scary looking.

windy, I believe the Olympic records have been changed to state that Caitlyn Jenner won the event

mrstiddles no I don't think it would be fair no matter how long they had lived as a woman. Read the link posted above by whatdolget - that's exactly what the problem is.

Sorry - Brents, not Brent's

Just realised there're too many scarys in my post

This makes me very pleased that men and women compete on equal terms in the sports I follow.

Re Jenner decathlon question: www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/06/06/u-s-olympic-committee-willing-to-revise-record-to-show-caitlyn-jenner-as-winner-of-1976-olympic-decathlon/