To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

Re: purple's point about archery, if there are sports where it really doesn't make a difference whether the participant is male or female, then a more logical answer would be to say that the division is artificial and it doesn't make sense to have male and female competitions.

Where there genuinely isn't a difference - such as equestrian sports, where the real athlete ha four legs and hooves - men and women DO compete in the same class.

Where there genuinely isn't a difference - such as equestrian sports, where the real athlete ha four legs and hooves - men and women DO compete in the same class.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not but the riders are athletes, too. It's damned hard work It's the only range of sports where the sexes are equal afaik because physical strength is needed, but it's not the most important aspect

I ride and not particularly well either - I know it's hard work!

Archer? I'd imagine it still makes a difference. Strength comes into it.

If you don't think riders are athletes too, then I'd challenge you to get on an Olympic show jumper and do the course. There's a good chance you wouldn't even get into the ring before you got unshipped

Re dead naming and the mention of pistorious makes me put two things together. I wonder if he would be able to decide he's "felt female all along" and get around his (current) ban

I do also wonder if theres an element of the "cheryl tweedy" about well timed coming out. Was jenner still bruce when he killed someone?

men and women do compete equally, however there are far more top level male showjumpers.

oh I don't know about that
I have a 15 year old dd who has an enormous horse and jumps enormous fences :-D

Can I get this straight - caster semenya and dutee chand had to undergo lot of tests to prove they were female, not limited to testosterone levels and including genital inspection. Whereas trans women only need to prove lower testosterone levels? And those levels can be higher than those requires for female athletes!?

Garlic that particular athlete does refer to their pre-transition life, and they've already retired-from-one-sport-and-started-afresh-in-another once in their career - sportspeople retraining in another discipline after they've returned from one isn't in the least unusual. In any case, I posted about them not because they in particular are in the running for the Olympics (I'm pretty sure they aren't), but to make the point that under the new guidelines, they could be. Which is patently unfair.

On deadnaming (which I didn't do) - are there different rules for people who explicitly leave their old names behind, and for people who switch between the two as it suits them, like Jenner?

I ride and not particularly well either - I know it's hard work!

I wasn't sure, it just bugs me when people think you just sit there

You can't force a horse to do something through strength alone, no. I said in another post that showjumping has more men at the top, I wonder if that's to do with the culture of the sport? But other events such as dressage and 3 day eventing seem fairly evenly split. Vaulting seems to be mostly women, though, and endurance, apart from some of the middle eastern teams

obs, that is how I understand it, yes

Its a fucking outrage

Annie - zombie naming?

Did I read that Mumsnet is conducting a poll on this.
BTW the hormonal makeup is irrelevant because the men are still there with their male bodies which are much stronger than women's anyway.
So this can't be allowed.

There isnt a proper poll, grog, but there is a thread in chat that is giving a rough idea of opinion

Women's hour now addressing women's football. I'd suggest we contact them about this but I know they tend to toe the libfem line

The female rowing advert proved that in some sports being the correct size with a good level of fitness can trump someone who has participated all their life at a choosen sport but is too short. The amount of women who would fit the requirements of a female rower would be a much smaller % than the amount of men. Women cycling would also be a sport that already active men with little cycling experience could transfer over and still be able to compete against very experienced women.

I am in the UK yes. I am going to ask a few questions of the governing bodies because there are some really interesting points here.
I see the danger about other countries trying to bend the rules to their advantage. Many worse things have happened with drugs and abortion doping so it could happen. I wonder what the practical process would be for someone to be approved.
Secondly I think where this kind of debate may become more pointed is when you have transgender kids who grow up. A child born a boy but who went through female puberty having taken hormones all their life. They might be really pretty good at sport. I guess they would get treated like intersex athletea get treated.
I am going to find out what i can and report back!

What stood out for me from the article mentioning Joanna Harper is that they are an anti-intersex activist

I wonder, is it just intersex people they campaign against, or do they also campaign against other people with chromosomal differences?

Arse.

I cant remember if i said here or elsewhere purple, but my 5yo ds does ballet and has a six pack. None of the girls look anywhere near the same. Differences are more than hormonal and dont just start at puberty.