To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

In many ways this is a heartening thread. The idea that MN people want a clear differentiation between men and women competitors in sport is fantastic. There must be a campaign for this.

Oh yes, all that I completely agree with math

But it won't help the cause to exaggerate the expected scale.

Manic, drug cheating in high level sports is very commonplace. It really isn't the case that most top athletes have a sense of sportsmanship and don't do it. It's rife.

Some people just want to win and if they have to take drugs to do so then so be it. This would just be another way for them to cheat, except it will be actually be allowed by the governing body. Lots of countries will definitely take this option in future Olympics to ensure they win medals.

I know it's already happening and it's awful.

Then you are not making sense.

they take drugs that will get them banned to win. To cheat. now they can take legal drugs and compete in another category, to win.

You think the cheaters are not above this when they already stoop so low?

Scale doesn't matter.

Women were never asked if it was ok by us that a subset of men could redefine the term woman.

So, unfortunately for the powers that be, we are now saying NO. Don't trample on us and try and hide our oppression through deliberate confusion around gender and sex. Don't avoid the uncomfortable dialogue about male violence and damaging models of masculinity by allowing encroachment into women's spheres based on feelings. Stop trying to remove the tools with which we can describe our commonality and, more importantly, show that the cards are still unfairly stacked because of how we are defined by others based on our perceived reproductive capabilities.

Just no. This is our world too.

Only a small number of people get to the top in competitive sport.
You only need a very, very small number of men to "feel like competing as a woman" to change the whole game for womankind.

It's not "hysterical", people here aren't predicting huge numbers. You only need a handful (which we are beginning to see already).

How many is the correct number in order to be concerned?

And so what if it's only one man stripping the chance for gold medal off a whole group of women?

Isn't one cheater too many? As we saw in cycling. Lance Armstrong stole the opportunity for Gold from 7 years worth of other competing cyclists.

None of my Facebook friends are interested. I posted the article about Darton Fox and the one about the Olympics changes and got absolutely nothing - no likes, no comments and certainly no shares.

Yet 5 minutes ago I changed my profile picture to me and Vinnie Jones and got 7 likes straight away. So there you go. ...

I did wonder if some of my more vocal friends just hadn't seen it so I messaged 14 of my friends as a group. Had no comments and 2 just left the group straight away.

Sorry Fallon Fox - autocorrect

The scale is important though, Manic, when you think about it.

Look at all the girls currently involved in track and field there are at least 150 girls devoting a lot of time and energy to running at my DCs' high school and 150 more if you count those doing cross country and all of them are hoping to impress a university with their grit and determination, or even get a scholarship to run at university level. Along come a few teenage boys who dominate the field, the conference, the region. They win the shot putt, the javelin, the discus, the 100 m, the 200 m, the mile, the hurdling events, the long jump. The time and effort of the 300 girls is for naught. They will be among the also rans. And those girls who might like to give track a go will be put off because they know they are going up against boys. So there is a ripple effect, because girls like to win too.

But again, it is the principle of gender trumping biology that is important to the Trans campaign, and women need to fight the principle.

I'm so, so angry about this.

The London Marathon has separate starts for men and women, and a debate has been ongoing as to whether a woman's record can officially start if it was won with a mixed start, because if men are allowed to pacemake for the women, it could give them an advantage.

But we've gone from a situation where being in the vicinity of a man is an unfair competitive advantage but BEING BORN a man isn't?

And I'm not a golf fan, but I remember the furore when a woman golfer was allowed to compete in a men's tournament after winning every single women's one for years on the trot.
Funnily enough, when there is a suggestion that women can muscle in on mens' spaces, there is international uproar. But we take it?
I'm so angry!

It's hard work isn't MrsG?

I'm going to go trawling FB and twitter for clues as t0 the stance of riends later. We never discuss this (most of us). Such a huge taboo.

Yy to bucking and math . Totally agree. I'm in for a campaign.

Adding my voice to this. I'd love to see a MN campaign on it. Somehow I doubt it will happen - too controversial - but we need to halt this redefinition of 'woman' to exclude our physical realities, before feminist ideas become literally unspeakable.

Manic, my Usain bolt example was a thought experiment. I don't think he'll be running on reduced testosterone in 2020.

But hundreds of male 100m runners could beat Flo Jo's record. AFAIK there's no studies or even estimates of how many of them could do it after a year of hormone therapy.

And if that happens in 2020, a record that would have stood for more than 30 years by then will have fallen, and, in all probability, a born female will never get it back.

I don't think there will be huge numbers, no . But the elite are so close together that any advantage - chemical or hormonal- can give them an edge.

It sounds like they're nervous of repercussions or burying their heads in the sand rather than they completely disagreed with you MrsGrady, I'm sure they would have posted negative comments if that were the case. I do wonder what exactly it will take for women to wake up to this.

Sadly mud, I can't see the likes of Jess Ennis or indeed any other sportswoman speaking up on this issue for the simple reason that they would then become a massive target for the activists who like to shout "TERF" at every opportunity, and every misogynist out there. And think of the damage it would do to their reputation to be labelled as transphobic? Bye bye all endorsements, hello threats of rape and murder. And Ennis is the mother of a very young child. I can't blame her for keeping quiet.

But again, it is the principle of gender trumping biology that is important to the Trans campaign, and women need to fight the principle.

Exactly this. It's the principle that needs challenging, and challenging hard. There is nothing inherent to being a woman other than our normative biology and if that commonality is unspeakable because we might hurt the feelings of a minority of men we're thrown back on a bunch of oppressive stereotypes which are, apparently, now 'innate' in some way. so we can't challenge them either. No thanks.

Sadly I think people don't really think of women's sport as particularly important. A push around the time of the Olympics might keep it in the public eye though, everyone gets a bit more interested in it then.

But again, it is the principle of gender trumping biology that is important to the Trans campaign, and women need to fight the principle.

Exactly this. It's the principle that needs challenging, and challenging hard. There is nothing inherent to being a woman other than our normative biology and if that commonality is unspeakable because we might hurt the feelings of a minority of men we're thrown back on a bunch of oppressive stereotypes which are, apparently, now 'innate' in some way. so we can't challenge them either. No thanks.

"As of 10 June 2013, 86 sprinters have broken the 10-second barrier with an official, legal time. The men's 100 metres final at the 2012 Summer Olympics saw a new Olympic record and seven men dip below ten seconds, with only one competitor failing to do so."

More than 0.5s less than Flo Jo's best...

With regards to Usain Bolt, can't you just picture it? After years of competing as a man, he decides he wants to become a woman. He gets a multi-million dollar reality TV show to document his transition, and is hailed for his unprecedented bravery. He then goes on to compete as a woman in the next Olympics, wins all the sprint events and is hailed as a pioneer for women's rights. Cue every single Woman of the Year award that's going!

I agree that Jess Ennis-Hill shouldn't have to put herself or her child at risk. It's shameful that women are basically being bullied out of their rights by misogynists of all gender identities and their useful idiots like Maria Miller.