To think that this is the end of women's athletics?

[fidel1ne]

And women's international sport generally?

Transgender competitors will be allowed to compete as the gender of their choosing pre-operatively and after just one year of hormone treatment.

The only answer i've ever seen to 'what does being a woman feel like' goes like this though...

"God, you just dont get it, you are so lucky. You dont even notice that you feel like a woman. Thats just your cis-priviledge, you are so priviledged. I am so hard done by. Wahhh."

Soon, there will be no women's only spaces. It's already happening in Canada and Ireland, the Uk won't be far behind, especially if that Miller woman has her way.

I suppose men had to get into refuges and shelters somehow without putting the effort of setting them up in.

a BBC documentary on gay people being forcibly sterilised with sex change surgery.

I think the Iranian trans women possibly feel they are stuck between a rock and a hard place regarding this. They don't really have that many workable options.

I'd agree Bam.

However, when you have a country that is happy to chop bits off people for the smallest infringement of social norms happy to offer GRS to people, then you have to wonder about the motivation for that.

I have nothing but sympathy for those Iranian men, what they are faced with is a world apart from Jenner or the boxer mentioned upthread.

Unbelievable that Fallon Fox fight was left to go on as long as it did.

The testosterone levels, how low can they go for MtoF trans? Can they ever get down to anything like women? If they have an op, which is basically castration, does it make a much bigger difference?
Because I'm wondering if it would be any more fair for women if the trans opponents were post op, or not.

There is enormous pressure on gay men and lesbians to transition, Maryz.

Homosexuality is punishable by death.

There was a piece about it on the BBC, here:

here

I think if someone has been through a male puberty there are permanent changes that occur in the body that can never be completely reversed. Also there are skeletal differences ie shape of the pelvis which mean that men can run faster than women which have nothing to do with hormones.

The undertones of regressive gender norms - if you're not a "proper" man or woman - you must be the opposite sex. Rather than, actually there are proper men and women who don't fit in the box you have designed.

"God, you just dont get it, you are so lucky. You dont even notice that you feel like a woman. Thats just your cis-priviledge, you are so priviledged. I am so hard done by. Wahhh."

Yes I have heard that before. I followed up with 'so explain it, tell me exactly how you feel. Explain how you went from being a man who has those feelings to knowing this is how women feel'

Then there is a blank.

It's not just the men - Iran is the only country in the world that has roughly equal numbers of FTT and MTT (the ratio is normally more like 4:1).

That's the way I am seeing it mud.
So for me, the surgery part of it doesn't make much difference. I would be equally unhappy with post-op competitors.

I would be genuinely interested to know from a gender critical TW like Miranda Yardley what 'feeling like a woman' means for her. Or if she does not 'feel like a woman', what that inner feeling consists of that prompted the physical and behavioural change.

I found this on Twitter

Yanbu- the end of women's sports

Not great for women's morale

And if we needed any more evidence of how voiceless and powerless ACTUAL women are compare to men / transwomen then it is here

I just posted on chat re Monroe and Hopkins. Well, really about the Long discussion and put a link for an article by Claire Heuchan. This link.

www.feministcurrent.com/2016/01/19/missing-the-intersections-when-race-sex-and-queer-politics/

She posts a thing by Paris Lees as an example of the way discussions about Transgender and gender itself seem to be touted as simply being about Transgender rights and discussion or debate is shut down simply as being transphobic if they explore the repercussions for anyone other than Trans rights, full stop. All greatly paraphrased! It is a fallacy to say these debates and lobbying are just related to transgender rights and is an issue just for trans people. It is a tyranny to say women aren't entitled to discuss or debate issues which we are beginning to see does have big implications and consequences and erosion of our hard won rights.

This is a good example about how laws and rules seems to be just taking gender issues from the perspective of transgender people into account and has completely disregarded how this line on gender disbenefits women as a sex. Women are perfectly entitled to disagree with takes on issues that disadvantage them. Interesting how women as a class are always trampled over. Debates, discussion and laws related to gender is not self-regarding in relation to transgender people and this notion ignores the rights of women. All people are affected by this and women seemingly disadvantaged more than most. I never really see the women who identify as trans as vocal and men who identify as trans. Are there much fewer, I wonder. Why that disparity if it is a disparity? As I said on the other post, it seems the notion of a woman is reduced to a hair-do in a dress.

Thought MY would be too sane to buy into the 'feels like a woman' guff.

I think this is terrible, absolutely wrong and a huge step backwards for women.

But I also think there's a certain amount of hysteria on this thread and that the consequences, though certainly as bad for women, won't be as numerous as many seem to think.

Sportspeople are certainly hugely competitive but they also take huge pride in their achievements and in overcoming challenge to be the best. I seriously doubt there will be many high level male athletes who want to compete as women just because it would be easier for them to win. They'd be ashamed of a win like that and it wouldn't feel satisfying.

I think it will only be men who genuinely want to live as and become women who choose to compete in women's sport. But I still don't think that's ok. Sure, I have sympathy for their situation but I see them as having body dysphoria, not as women accidentally born as men. And I don't think born women should have to suffer for that tiny percentage of people.

That may make me transphobic, I don't know. But actually, in the literal sense of the word I am transphobic - I am very afraid of what the trans agenda means for women.

Yes it's very heartening isn't it!

Sorry my post was to Watchers

sister I watched an interview with FF, where they said their testosterone is considerably lower than a woman. Because FF has had their testicles removed, but obviously doesn't have ovaries. So, only has testosterone made in adrenal glandd

So you think it's totally wrong, and you're afraid for the future of women's rights, but you think posters on this thread are creating "hysteria". Why?

That last to manic