to be worried about my daughter's future safety in Europe as a young secular woman?

[rodriguez66]

I have a 6 year old daughter. I can't stop worrying about whether it will be safe for her in Europe in the future as a young woman after the sexual assaults all over Europe. I hate to think that she would not be able to enjoy the freedoms I take for granted as a woman and I do not want her to have to hide her femininity because some men cannot control themselves. I want her to be able to dress how she wants when she is older and be able to speak her mind without being scared. Is this completely irrational? My husband thinks I am worrying too much but obviously he is not a woman.

Ipity, I find comparisons to the Jews very offensive. Even now, they have suffered the worst attacks since the 1940s in Europe and not at the hands of white skinheads either. As for ethnic hatred, what about the contempt many Muslims feel for the "kuffar"?

Shins - rt.com is a very dubious source, as their antics involving the aid envoy to Madaya show: www.bild.de/politik/ausland/syrien-krise/hell-of-madaya-44151008.bild.html

Fidiline - In my very first post I said that the crimes should be investigated and the perpetrators punished. Who perpetrated the crime should make no difference to this.

I don't think stringing together everything bad a Muslim has ever done to make a unifying theory is helpful.

I don't think demonising refugees and migrants en masse serves any positive purpose, just as it hasn't for any other group which has faced similar demonisation.

I've worked at a big university for a few years now, helping international students, large numbers of whom are from the ME and NA, improve their English and integrate into life in the UK by accompanying them on trips and hosting social events for them. In my time, I've worked with hundreds of men from Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iraq, Morocco. I have never, ever felt threatened or belittled, or that I had to change my ways so as not to 'provoke' them. These guys are/were almost completely practising Muslims. In all honesty, I feel safer in a big group of them than I do walking down my local high street at night (in a city that's predominantly white). I feel safer and more respected with them than I used to walking down the street in Barcelona (until I learned to dress less 'eye-catchingly' - which is sick).

You could say the difference here is education. The men who come to my university are educated, at least to degree level. They're not necessarily from well off backgrounds (all are government sponsored). But then you look at the danger that young female students have forced upon them by the lad/frat culture among young British male students. My university has had several instances of this (at least that we know of). Never one report of sexual harassment or assault by a Middle Eastern or North African student.

The issue here is one of respect for the culture and people of the place that's hosting you. If you can't demonstrate this, I don't think you can stay. This doesn't mean denouncing your own beliefs or culture but realising that the law is the law and it's there to protect people so you need to abide by it. I'm pro-immigration but deportation seems the only fitting punishment for this kind of crime. The women in Cologne can't be forgotten or treated as collateral.

Who perpetrated the crime should make no difference to this

We agree on something, then

I don't think stringing together everything bad a Muslim has ever done to make a unifying theory is helpful.

Who has done that?

If the current mass movement of people is a factor that has enabled or led to some crimes, that should be sayable. To say so isn't to decry the fact that mass migration is happening.

Large scale events or demographic shifts like war, famine, displacement of people rarely occur without some people taking advantage of the chaos.

The more politicized the intent behind the crimes, the more important it is that we are not all scared into silence. OPen discussion is the only way to diffuse the danger posed by extreme groups, be they jihadi or neo-nazi.

And blanket support of an entire demographic is never rational. In the same way that blanket condemnation isn't.

Not sure what quality of linkage yo find worthy Ipity, but I read many Gean publications online and they cover the numerous sexual harassment cases.

I don't really understand the minimising going on here, just because sexual harassment happens here as well then we're not supposed to worry about imported one?

And yes, do read up on the history of the Ottoman Empire and South Europe.

Ipity it was live streaming. No editing, no narration, nothing but long wide shots of the border areas and their various flashpoints. Of course it's possible that Putin hired some actors and staged the whole thing to make the setting and participants EXACTLY like the edited scenes on Sky or BBC, amazing..

But you carry on ignoring the reasonable substantive points everyone is making and keep repeating your endless claims for victimisation. And seriously- comparing the plight of European Muslims to Jews in the 1930s - take that back, will you? It's beyond stupid and offensive. Read some history.

Similar to Agent I have worked with a number of recent immigrants from the Middle East and Africa, many of them young, practising muslim men. I have never felt intimidated by any of them and they have always been very respectful when I tell them what to do - which I have had to as part of my job. They also had a line manager who was a British, secular woman of Pakistani heritage and I never heard of anyone disrespecting her (except a white guy from Lancashire once - he was a bit of a dick but that's another story). Again though, they were all well educated men. I think this maybe has something to do with it.

Anyway, I don't think YABU Op. It is a scary time, but I also think there is room for positive change. It is unhelpful to think every young men arriving from the Middle East and North Africa will hold the same views and be unable to adjust to more liberal values. I don't think that is the case at all from my own experience.

Shins, you stated,

'Ipity, have you thought of how the natives of Hungary and Serbia feel about large groups of aggressive men chanting Allahu Akbar as they smash through their borders? You might want to read up on the Ottoman conquest of that part of the world. People have long memories. The Battle of the Boyne was in 1690 but it is just as provocative today for Ulster Unionists to make a point of marching through Catholic neighbourhoods on the 12th of July.'

In Serbia the UNHCR are there and the refugees wait peacefully. Sometimes they ask for shoes for their children and they share stories of where they came from. They often express their gratitude for the help they have been given, quite far from the picture of marauding invader you would like to portray.

People do have long memories and many haven't forgotten the recent war when Mladic oversaw the slaughter of 8000 Muslim men and boys at Srebrenica, which he explained as retribution for the Ottoman invasion. In addition, those memories and their expeience of war has prompted many to help the refugees and not turn to old hatreds.

My friend had to leave Bosnia during the war. He hasn't forgotten either and has trouble sleeping now anti Muslim sentiments sweep Europe once again. He is scared to death.

Oh, and many Hungarians feel desperately sad and ashamed of their government and stood alongside the road that the refugees walked on when they made their way to Austria, giving out fruit and drinks. Did you miss the news reports? They also went to Keleti and Roske to help them, disgusted by the behaviour of their government.

Shall I read up on the history of the British Empire too?

Using the example of the Ottomans to smear people today is an utterly nonsensical argument. It is, it also isn't "a substantive point".

Claiming Muslims are shouting "war cries" as they travel across Europe - not a substantive point either.

Claiming most Muslims hate non-Muslims - not a substantive point.

Criticising people for running in groups - not a substantive point. (Is there a naice way to travel thousands of miles on foot with little food or shelter, I wonder?).

Interesting then Agent and cake.

Maybe we could read up on the history of the Ottoman Empire, some light reading never did anyone harm, but this is not relevant here.

This thread is about women feeling increasingly unsafe in Europe and women feel unsafe because of the large groups of muslim men, who seem to lack respect for them. Lack of education and the tendency to congregate in groups does make this work.

It is relevant Ottilia, when people compare refugees to Ottoman invaders.

I don't feel increasingly unsafe. I don't believe that being a Muslim man makes you more likely to disrespect women. I don't think there is strong evidence that Muslim men lack education and have a tendency to congregate in groups. They are nasty sweeping generalisations.

What I wrote though was that women feel increasingly unsafe because of the large groups of muslim men who lack respect for them. Obviously not all muslim men are part of these groups, many are perfectly pleasant people , they are not part of the packs.

But yes, I am worried about what the future holds for women.

My big fear is that there is simply no political will to really protect women's rights in the UK.

If sexual violence and misogyny were treated with zero tolerance in the UK, the issue of migration would make little impact on the lives of women, as any migrants who ignored the law would find themselves punished and it would not take long for the status quo to reassert itself.

Sadly, we don't have a zero tolerance approach, and IMO women's hard-won gains have taken several steps backwards in recent years, well before migration became an issue.

Fideline - It's generally bad form to bring up other threads, but I will humour you. On the other thread all I was doing was pointing out that a story cited as verified fact, wasn't.

It had nothing to do with the country in question, as if you're so keen to stalk me across Mumnet, you would see I have reason to be very unfond of the Iranian regime.

Fideline - It's generally bad form to bring up other threads, but I will humour you.

No need to humour me; I think everyone's given up on that convention. It's been done to me this week too. And last week. So hey, I'll join when it's this pertinent.

I don't need to stalk you - you suddenly appeared at the top of three of my TIOs at once, making dubious points about Syrian migrants and Iran.

You can see that it looks like feminist baiting on emotive threads, can't you Pity?

How is it "feminist baiting" to post on a Site Stuff thread that something probably isn't true?

It wasn't an emotive thread, it was in Site Stuff. If that's emotive, so are most threads on here.

Anyway, that's irrelevant to this thread. If you wish to discuss it further PM me, or report me to MNHQ.

So what happened on NYE in Cologne Pity? What were the causes, what was the reason? It's a very serious, very unusual event and one which we would be sensible to prevent.

I think pity is a man. No female would be so ignorant of the importance of personal safety for women, or so quick to minimise the fear of losing that safety. But then again, I don't know any men who don't have at least some grasp of that either. Maybe pity just likes to make controversial --silly -- comments that don't actually mean anything.

Ohfor, I don't think someone disagreeing with you has to be a man do they? I haven't seen pity minimising anything.

No, she's been around a long time. I think it's that she's focussing exclusively on any possible whiff of Islamaphobia and has developed tunnel vision (and maybe a touch of paranoia -sorry).

Well, so far, pity has negated claims that ME and NA men have been largely responsible for hundreds of sex attacks on women across Europe, despite several posts attaching actual news clips which appear to be bona fide. She has accused posters of anti semitism in earlier posts and she has been asked, quite reasonably by MrsTP what she feels is the real cause or reason for so many of these sexual assaults across Europe. But I don't seem to be able to find her reply. Maybe you have an answer Emily ?

My worry is not just these recent attacks in Germany, but the general cultural attitude towards women in general in the UK anyway- in terms of street harassment of women, large number of unreported rapes etc. If my dd goes jogging and happens to cross a road, is it ok for men to beep at her, shout obscene things, make her feel awful for being in lycra out in public. Domestic violence rates are still unacceptably high.

I worry for my girls, but not just because of the last few weeks, but because I thought this stuff would be getting better thirty or forty years later than when I grew up (I know lots of women who have been flashed at, harassed and sadly a good few who have been raped). I assumed we would have cracked this by now, but we haven't at all.