formula

[Emma2506]

Ok so I don't want to turn this into a whole ff vs bf war but I find it highly offensive to ff mums who can't collect advantage points/clubcard points, shops aren't allowed to have any offers on etc for formula. I understand it's the LAW but why is it acceptable to have deals on alcohol yet ff mums are penalised for choosing to ff or not being able physically able to bf? I know the excuse is shops promote breast feeding but I'm struggling to get my head around why a bf mum would buy formula just because it's on offer if she is doing well bf and it's FREE!

Hmm, see that's where I disagree. Because at a population level it is good for us to encourage and support bfing (not promote, hollow promotion is useless and guilt inducing). At a population level, it has health benefits.

Also, there is a massive weight of preference towards ffing from generations of parents and gps to whom formula feeding was promoted (You don't see this as often on MN, though it does come up, but we're not a very representative sample).

I don't think any individual woman should be pushed into bfing. I don't think any woman should be made to feel bad if that is her choice or her need. But I do think that encouraging and normalising is important.

The midwives I met during my pregnancy were militant about BF and gave me terrible advice. They were very keen to tell women they must BF but not so good at telling women how to.

There must be a reason why 81% of babies in the uk are BF at birth and only 17% were still BF at three months.

Priority I think normalising and supporting it is important. I don't think I was supported well with bfing and I was exhausted and stressed following a very traumatic birth and so I gave up. The midwives did help but they just said "he's latched fine", and didn't tell me what to do about him screaming at the breast, him not latching for more than 3 seconds, he had an injury from the forceps that meant he couldn't feed from one side and no one told me...there were lots of things that could have been better. I don't know if it would have meant bf worked as for some reason I get very bad pain when bf and I also feel sick (physically, not as in I think bf is sickening I just start to feel like I'll be sick!). But I would have liked a better start

Is there a preference for ff? I know in my family there is but that's because everyone who tried bf has found it very difficult rather than any dislike of bf.

I think bf support is important but it's the encouraged part I feel a bit strange about.

Gunting I completely agree. I think there needs to be less "breast is best" and more actual advice on how to bf. Because knowing bf is great isn't helpful when your baby won't feed and you have no idea what to do and you're in agonising pain

I said it's not just about the benefits of breastfeeding, it's about the risks that formula introduces - none of these are discussed with pregnant women so that they can make an informed, educated decision. It's just you can breastfeed or formula feed, breastfeeding is best because of X, Y, Z. However they fail to mention all of the risks that formula introduces, so really an informed choice is not being made. That is the power of the giant marketing budgets these formula companies have. They are currently carrying out dodgy practices in China at the moment (bribing health professionals to insist new mothers feed formula in hospital).

A tiny tiny minority of women cannot breastfeed. Those who choose to stop breastfeeding due to whatever reason (and pain means that the latch is not correct) is because they didn't receive enough support (something which is seriously lacking) and a lot start supplementing with formula because they mistakenly think (usually advised by a useless health visitor) baby isn't getting enough (when they actually are but they feed round the clock when going through a growth spurt).

Completely agree catsmeow!!

When I was in hospital my DS was screaming in hunger, the midwife would come in, latch him on and walk off straight away. DS would maybe suck 1 or 2 times, come off again, start screaming and I would have to press the call bell again. I was shattered, stressed and upset but nobody actually took the time to show me how to BF. It was awful.

Coconut maybe it's different in different areas but where I live we do have information regarding the risks of formula feeding.

Initially I breastfed my son. I didn't receive any support or help and it really really wasn't working. At 2 days old he had lost 1lb 3oz from his birth weight. I was advised to give him formula and I absolutely think it was the correct advice.

Writer - I had a similar experience to you. I had to ring the bell constantly for a midwife to help me but most of them, except for one, were either useless or horrible to me. One used to give out to me over ringing the bell, she was a nasty woman.

The only reason I got on a good path with breastfeeding is because I paid for a private lactation consultant to visit me at home quite a few times. The "support" in hospitals is non-existent. You really have to seek help outside of the hospital setting unfortunately.

coconut - absolutely, even my midwife and HV weren't very helpful.

The only way I survived was weekly breast feeding groups, I was ringing support helplines, I had Peer Supporters come to my house (after crying down the phone to an advice line) and I also paid too see a Lactation Consultant, it was about £120 I think. I also met up with the infant feeding co- ordinator for the County as I was just so desperate for help. The first 8 weeks were hell and like you said, the only support I got was from me actively finding it myself or paying for it.

Sorry, sort of set off a discussion and then left.

What I mean by encourage and support is that large sections of the population do see ff as normal. Do believe that formula is as good as/better than bm in composition (again, I think its marvellous stuff). Do assume that they will ff and give no thought to bf. That's the encourage bit. But the support is vital.

As I said, promoting is worst of all. Tell people something is great then don't help them. Guilt all round.

Sorry, by normal I mean standard. Not that it's not 'normal' to ff

I used follow on milk from about 9 months as it was cheaper and you could get offers on it

We switched to follow-on at 6 months because it was cheaper.

Case and point here. Follow on milk is full of sugar to make babies guzzle it down, but the formula companies don't tell you this. They are allowed to market it, so they do. It's amazing stuff, packed with nutrients, better than anything else - if you believe everything they say.
But despite it being far too sugary, and having no real health benefits, parents feed it because it is cleverly marketed to them, and included in promotions.

It's sad. But does prove the point rather.

Utter baloney re lack of education. We know it all,over and over again. Formula is popular because it does a perfectly reasonable job and the benefits of breast feeding just aren't big enough to warrant the stress in many cases.

You've contradicted yourself here. The benefits of breastfeeding are huge, REALLY huge, and will impact on someone's whole life.
But parents still don't feel it's worth 'the stress.' It totally is.
But I'm not criticising - or rather, I am, but criticising the government and HCP who do not offer enough support, usually because they are woefully underfunded and undersupported themselves.

Also, people get a lot of incorrect advice from older family members, who DID have formula marketed to them. My own MIL was bewildered by the fact that I was breastfeeding, as 'formula has much more vitamins in it for them.' Her own daughters will all FF because they will be pressured to do so by their mother. This happens a lot.

One of the main reasons I carried on was that I have friends who have breastfed, so it was normal for me to see. I hope that by the time my children are having children, breastfeeding will be the norm for them to emulate too.

We ban some advertising because the product is bad itself (e.g. cigarettes). We ban others because, even though the product itself is life saving, the negative effects of advertising are too great (e.g. we don't allow marketing of prescription medicines in this country).

Totally agree with everything you've said priority.

I agree I think for many formula is seen as the default and bf the alternative.

Women need more support from hpcs but also from thir own families.

Someone said on another thread once women are expected to be up, dressed, on the school run, cooking, cleaning the house. When actually I think if you're going to succeed at bf many could just benefit from complete rest. So things like more paternity leave for dads, grandparents helping not just turning up to hold the baby and leaving their dirty coffee cups on the side.

Formula is sold as the convenient option but actually sterilising and making bottles is a huge faff and expensive and I imagine if you can establish bf it would make life easier long term.

You've contradicted yourself here. The benefits of breastfeeding are huge, REALLY huge, and will impact on someone's whole life.

That's a stretch, the only conclusive evidence is better immunity, the other claims like higher IQ and less obesity are far more complex and there's conflicting evidence

Pyjama I agree if bf is going to work you need help in the house, as you'll be just bfing for a while!

Priority in that case I agree, I'm all for normalising bf

shutupthomas - my nan was pretty much horrified that I chose to breast feed and every time I visited she always made very negative comments about it, chipped away at me about my choice and my confidence bit by bit. I eventually stopped going round. My auntie and PIL were also unsupportive, they weren't exactly critical but always making underhanded comments about the 'harm' I was doing by choosing to BF instead of FF.

I went to visit my sister when DS was 7ish weeks and I started breast feeding him in front of my niece (who was 5) and she was absolutely fascinated as she'd never seen it before. She was practically latched on to me herself because she was watching DS so closely. She got a toy cat this Christmas which comes with three kittens (she's 7 now) and she kept putting the kittens by the teats and went round telling people that the mummy cat was going to breast feed her babies

Follow on milk isn't full of sugar, you may be thinking of toddler milk

Actually, there are far more benefits than just immunity.

Breastmilk is the optimal nutrition for babies (formula is a poor substitute in comparison - have you ever looked at the list of ingredients in formula?)

It builds a stronger immune system.

Breastfed babies have a lower risk of obesity later in life (you only need to look around you now to see the obesity epidemic in the current generation who would mostly have been FF since that's when formula companies were allowed do their aggressive marketing). It's also probably not unrelated that this a large proportion of this generation have digestive issues (eg IBS).

Breastmilk helps with brain development.

Breastfeeding helps reduce the risk of allergies.

Breastfeeding decreases the risk of SIDS.

That's just some of the benefits for the baby, nevermind all the benefits for the mother (eg reduced risk of breast cancer), etc.

I have just checked 2 brands of follow on milk and they had less sugar in the follow on milk than in the first infant milk

That's a stretch, the only conclusive evidence is better immunity, the other claims like higher IQ and less obesity are far more complex and there's conflicting evidence

With respect, that's really not true at all. Immunity is just one of the proven benefits of breastfeeding.

Not sure what to do now. If I take the time to find the studies, it is often things like this that makes FF mothers feel victimised.

Breastfeeding has proven benefits to gut health, including lower risk of IBS/related conditions.
It is proven to lower the risk of asthma in later life (40% less likely), as well as allergies such as hay fever, which may not develop until the child is older.
It is proven to reduce the risk of obesity in later life, as formula, as an unnatural food for a human baby, is stored differently in fat cells, and causes subtle changes in the way the body stores fat.
Breastfed babies are far less likely to develop infections. For example a breastfed baby is 17% less likely to suffer from middle ear infections, 64% less likely to suffer gastrointestinal infections, and 72% less likely to suffer respiratory tract infections. And since we are looking at antibiotics only lasting another 30 years or so, this is a fairly major thing.
Breastfeeding is also proven to lower the risk of diabetes and childhood leukaemia, as well as a between 36% and 50% lowered risk of SIDS, depending which study you look at.

Breastfeeding also benefits the mother, lowering the risk of developing breast cancer, ovarian cancer, and diabetes, as well as aiding weight loss after pregnancy and helping the uterus to contract effectively.

Then, as you say, there are anecdotal claims of breastfeeding aiding brain development, although this has not been proven.

All of the above is fact. And is not an attack on anyone who didn't breastfeed, or anything like that.

coconut a lot of those benefits are disputed though, studies that have looked at siblings where ones been bf and one hasn't haven't found much difference. And if you use a dummy you reduce the risk of SIDS.

I agree about the mother benefits.

I'm not saying bf isn't great, it is, but I think it's looked at as a miracle cure and that's a stretch

Plus it's free and readily available. It's well worth the hassle of the early weeks, but many people don't realise this as they have older family members (who've had formula aggressively marketed at them) telling them that formulas just as good. It's a shame.

OhShutUpThomas I thought studies that had looked at sibling sets found very little difference in those that had been bf and those that hadn't? I believe bf was shown to be marginally better but by a very small gap

a lot of those benefits are disputed though,

They're really, really not.

ALL medical researchers agree. ALL. There is no controversy over the PROVEN benefits of breastfeeding.

There are, however, plenty of self proclaimed 'doctors' on google disputing medical fact, usually to justify their own choices to themselves. It's really sad

The main problem is lack of support. Which comes from lack of funding. Which the government refuses to give. It's hard.