to think this is not a workplace culture that should be encouraged

[jazzingaround]

A friend's son has just started a new job and was telling my friend that 'it's not the done thing' to leave the office at your contracted time. Apparently everyone hangs around, not wanting to be the first to go, finding stuff to do, deliberately sending emails to their managers so the time will show up etc etc.

AIBU to find this increasingly prevalent attitude sad and unhealthy? Obviously, in some jobs, long hours are unavoidable. In others, staff are overloaded and unwillingly working ridiculous hours.

But people deliberately and needlessly hanging around the office after their contracted working day is finished, and management encouraging and rewarding this kind of behaviour, seems like a backward step to me.

It was the case when I started working (accountancy) some 25 years ago. All well and good when you are young and child-free.

The only good thing was the phones switched off at 5.30 so you could generally work uninterrupted into the evening.

Jobsworth by another name

Its ridiculous and illegal.

You cannot be forced to work overtime. People cailming tax benefits cannot work overtime, and other peoples tax status is none of your business. You cannot out someone at work for being disabled or a single parent.

Its an act of gross misconduct.

I've heard of this a lot in law firms and other industries.

It shows poor management. Just because someone stays late in the office, does not mean they work harder. Some simply use it for social media or shopping time but they 'look' industrious as they are there late.

Depends on the role. But in my opinion if you are earning 45k plus (or in a training role where you will cross that threshold in time, lawyer, accountant etc) then the hours in your contract are the minimum not the maximum

Most contracts in that sort of job include a clause that says you are expected to work the hours required to do your job properly. That coold we'll be 55 even if your contract says 37.5.

Not to say it's right and it is a negative culture, but that's the expectation in jobs where your long term prospects could be very good. These additional hours are how people set themselves apart from their competition for promotion. Most youngsters don't care about it until they have a family and work-life balance becomes more important, so employers will take advantage until they do care.

Maybe I'm wrong, I kind of see this as the difference between a career and a job. A job you work your hours, if you want to pursue a career then the hours are irrelevant.

I'll tell my children to go for it in the early years, progress fast whilst you have no family and then manage the work life balance back in once a family arrive. Easier to climb the ladder when you don't have other responsibilities.

The one thing that does get to me about this is technology. When I started work pre computer age we were told about all the time saving benefits of computerisation. 20 years on we all have computers but are working more hours than ever, what happened to the time saving?!

It's ridiculous and poor management.

I work for a startup, I drop the kids off at school, work all day and get the kids at 5:30. I have occasional evening meetings, and I'll probably chat with my colleagues a bit evenings and weekends. That is a healthy work/life balance.

I think it's telling that we're all very experienced, all have kids, and all know that it's more important that stuff gets done than people just show their faces for x hours a day.

A friend of mine works in recruitment By far my most productive time in recruitment was between 4 and 6.30 - much easier to speak to candidates, clients, get feedback from interviews etc. It wasn't about impressing the managers at all. Rarely found anyone at their desk at 9 though...

I think presenteeism is increasingly outdated but some workplaces haven't caught on yet. It's more acceptable now to work to hours and people recognise that some employees have commitments outside of work which don't affect their commitment to work.

Having said that, if the lad has just started then probably not a good idea to be watching the clock for finishing time...

Nonsensical culture. I worked somewhere like that. As my office was right opposite the stairs, I used to leave my jacket on the back of my chair, and my computer on, and disappeared down the stairs so I didn't have to walk down the corridor to the lifts. My computer would turn itself off about an hour later. Yes it was in the City too.

One way around this is to work 9-4 or something similar. People accept that you leave on time and you get less hassle than you would if you left at 5.30! Not always, but most of the time. I also dislike it when you get in at 8 and leave at 5 but all your boss can see is that you are leaving at 5, not that you were in an hour earlier than you needed to be. I've had that too.

No getting away from this in any law firm I've worked in or heard of. 9-6 would certainly not impress anyone. Everyone talks about hating presenteeism but everyone's still here at 9 pm... Same for weekend working.

It's too much of a culture change to break away.

Yes my experience was in law firms and in-house legal teams. They don't seem to have made the connection between long hours and negligence claims...

when I read a case about a badly drafted contract I always wonder if it was signed on Christmas Eve and everyone was working silly hours in the run-up to it to get it done before Christmas.

It's actually my new year's resolution to only work the hours I'm being paid for.

We do have some team members who have been know to stay until 11pm. I know because we all use a team IM service rather than email, so it pings away on my phone.

I do think the culture is shifting though. A few of us have piped up and stated that we will no longer be answering IMs after work. Got to be tough otherwise I'd never stop working.

well it's certainly been going on since my early 20s and I'm now 40

highly undesirable but definitely not new

when I was last looking for a new job, a contact directed me to a company who were (apparently) well known for banging on about work life balance. Oddly enough I had a networking thing shortly after with a couple of people from that company there. I asked them about it and got the answer I was expecting "oh, it's all just bullshit, in reality it's a presenteeism culture".

I should add, in my early 20s I saw it among people who were earning starter salaries from £15k, I'm not talking about people earning a lot of money.

Oh the joy of office contradictions.

Its all about work life balance one minute, but then it's "bums on seats" the next. I find Present-ism culture is what prevents work life balance. People too scared to go home in case they are told they haven't done their hours!

It's the work you put into the hours,

Not the hours you put into the work

I started with a Big 4 (accountancy) firm and this was the culture. It is actually incredibly sexist - you can only get on if you are seen there late, but if you have childcare requirements (which usually fall upon women unfairly in relationships) then you can't stay late.

I used to make a massive show of leaving as soon as work completed - "Yes, I am off - are you still staying? That seems ridiculous. Yes, I have done everything I need to and planned for tomorrow" etc. etc. etc.

Speaking to a couple of partners years later (after I left) they used to think it was bloody hilarious that I didn't fall for this culture being imposed by the current middle managers.

My wife works in education. There it seems you are expected to be on call for emails 24 hours a day. You know, in case of a GCSE grading emergency at 0300.

Gosh lorelei9 what a xpost. there are some spoooky parallels in our posts. Sounds like we have a similar experience at work

This is my experience in my workplace too (public sector). It didn't used to be but a change in senior management about 2 years ago has filtered down. If you work to your hours its frowned upon (therefore most of the 'frowned upon' employees are Mums who have to be out of the office at a certain time to pick up kids etc). It's expected - although not explicitly - that you should be checking emails and be contactable during annual leave and public holidays, there is no overtime but we do have flexi but its very easy to end up with a lot of flexi-leave but no way of taking it since the place is too busy and there has to be a certain number of staff present every day. This is office junior/admin levels not just managers. We have a lot of flexible working policies like working from home/flex working, but these are at the discretion of the manager so the majority of staff aren't allowed. Productivity is probably less than it was but nobody seems to care as long as your face is in the office.

From my experience it's a lot worse than a few years ago.

I don't know anyone who leaves work at 5:30 BUT they have work to do, they are not just wasting time hanging around.

No, of course you are not paid for that overtime, come on, we all do it BUT that's why you are being paid commission and bonuses. No one forces anyone to arrive early and stay late, but don't expect the same promotion opportunities, pay rise and bonuses than someone who works twice as hard. It wouldn't be fair.

I had clients in the Middle East, so have always spent a couple of hours on my emails on Sundays. Of course, it's a choice, but when the job is interesting and well paid, why not? Our receptionists work their contractual hours only, they're just doing a different job

This type of culture came from the US and is led from the top. If this type of behaviour is rewarded and seen as best practice it will continue. There is also an undercurrent in some companies that people have to be available outside work time otherwise you are not pulling your weight (the company I work for is included in this)

Alice - I think it's a different animal when you are paid commission and bonuses but I still expect that to actually need presence in the office rather than sit there and play online so managers can see you.

Some jobs require longer hours. If I come in early or leave late, I will be working at top speed, flat out, efficiently, all day. Not mismanagement by me, just meeting various deadlines that converge. I am certainly not staying for the sake of it.

The return is that I am well regarded and get good bonuses etc. Others who choose not to are not some super organised efficient individuals, but people who have chosen to work less and are rewarded accordingly. I would not reward a staff member just for working late, but if they contributed more overall, they should be given a good pay rise. You can work both efficiently and long hours if the job requires it, as many City jobs do.

Alice, not everyone gets commission and bonuses. If some individuals are totally absorbed with their careers, and happy to work all hours for no extra pay, well that's up to them.

It's when it becomes a culture and an expectation, and employees are embarrassed and guilt tripped into working long hours and being available at weekends and during holidays, that a problem arises. Not just for the individuals concerned, but at a societal level if longer and longer working hours become the norm.

I have contracted part time hours of 28 hours a week. I work for a household name company. If I do just 28 hours a week I would eventually be sacked. I have to work around 3 hours a week for free as does everyone in my business line as we have productivity targets. I haven't had a pay rise in ten years and it's really crap.

I can log my hours doing some wfh as I physically can't be in the office more and pick my kids from school.

When I am doing my free hours my company get what feels like fair quality of free work. Ie pay peanuts get a monkey. It was never mentioned when they employed me. It's not in at t&c. But doing the maths no one can meet this target if they want to use their holiday allocation. I can watch the tv, watch my kids or even start dinner while checking the non urgent emails I put aside during the day. It's just box ticking nonsense

I've never been in a job where I clocked off promptly at the end of the day. Ot be seen to be taking a lunch hour either. Thought it was the done thing in most jobs.

Lore lei, might be wrong but that sounds like an accountants or lawyers training salary. So we should bear in mind that on a training contract you are studying / at college for 20+ weeks of the year (paid for by an employer) so pro rata those salaries aren't "low" given the hours and the cost of training. Plus in those roles the trainee has the potential of earning 6 figures by their 30s.

Others saying it's illegal, it isn't , it's in the contrAct they signed and if they want to progress it's what's expected.

Not just professional services either. Good telesales people will work outside of office hours doing their paperwork to free themselves to just sell in working hours. Good estate agents know that people who view properties at weekends / evenings, tend to be more serious buyers so they work outside of normal hours. Again for their benefit. Good teachers work countless hours outside of their contracts.

Sorry, but people who work to rule from day one of a job just aren't good employees. I see this with staff who say "that's not my job, X should do it"

That's fine, but don't expect to ever be promoted then.