to think this is not a workplace culture that should be encouraged

[jazzingaround]

A friend's son has just started a new job and was telling my friend that 'it's not the done thing' to leave the office at your contracted time. Apparently everyone hangs around, not wanting to be the first to go, finding stuff to do, deliberately sending emails to their managers so the time will show up etc etc.

AIBU to find this increasingly prevalent attitude sad and unhealthy? Obviously, in some jobs, long hours are unavoidable. In others, staff are overloaded and unwillingly working ridiculous hours.

But people deliberately and needlessly hanging around the office after their contracted working day is finished, and management encouraging and rewarding this kind of behaviour, seems like a backward step to me.

[OnlyLovers]

I don't think it's particularly new; I've been working for decades and think this mentality of presenteeism has always been with us, sadly.

It does vary depending on the area of work. I remember in shop jobs when I was a student, if I lost track of the time I'd be practically escorted out by my manager at clocking-off time, presumably so they didn't open themselves to accusations of bot paying me overtime or something.

In office jobs, though, there's definitely always been a sense that if you leave on time you're shirking. It really pisses me off, especially as I tend to get in early as that's when I work better; but there's no one else there to see me, so I get raised eyebrows on the rare occasions when I leave on time! (not that I care any more).

Those posters saying that longer hours are rewarded by bonuses, rises, promotions etc – these things are by no means universal. In a lot of places pay isn't great but working long hours for no extra reward is an unspoken but expected thing.

[Shakey15000]

To be fair, my last employer offered flexi/core hours and were very good at insisting you went home once your hours for the week had been worked. It was a clock in/out system where you could record your attendance by the minute.

However, it went from the sublime to the bloody ridiculous. With people glued to their timesheets and making comments like " Ooh, if I leave at 17.13 today, that means I can finish at 2.35 tomorrow as I'll have done exactly my 37 hours" to someone who I detest anyway whinging "If I don't leave now I'll be EIGHT MINUTES over my contracted hours"

Verbatim.

[RaskolnikovsGarret]

I agree Lurking. I take a dim view of my direct reports who behave like that. I don't think people should hang around if there is nothing to do, and I will leave early/on time if I am not busy. But I will work extra hours and pull my weight if need be, and expect that of my colleagues too.

[phoenix1973]

I have worked in some places where some staff do naff all from 9-5 and then moan and martyr about staying late (presenteeism at its worst).

FFS if they got the job done when they were paid to get it done then they wouldn't be staying late.

The boss did notice and wondered what it was about their job that couldn't be done between 9 and 5!

[jazzingaround]

people who work to rule from day one of a job just aren't good employees. I see this with staff who say "that's not my job, X should do it" [quote]

There's a difference between being reasonably flexible regarding the tasks you're willing to take on, and being pressurised to provide hours of unpaid work and to sacrifice a healthy work/life balance. The latter shouldn't be essential to getting promotion.

[Crazybaglady]

When I was an employee I couldn't get out the door quick enough at my contracted end time

[SlaggyIsland]

Where I worked I tended to admire the people who left on time. They tended to have both excellent time-management skills and good self-confidence and boundaries.

[Boredofthinkingofnewnames]

Depends on the industry / culture doesn't it? I am fairly sure my contracted hours are 37.5, my timcards are often around 45 per week. I leave on time now I have to collect DCs but am in early and work through lunch to enable it. Think most offices would be like that, certainly private sector.

[2016IsANewYearforMe]

Most corporate jobs are like this. I agree it's stupid. I used to be a senior manager. When I'd go home I'd say a conspicuous "goodbye" and remind everyone not to stay too long. I sometimes felt pressured to leave sooner than I wanted to do so because I knew a couple of dozen people were waiting for me to go first.

[twojumpingbeans]

Actually, I think that working super long hours just looks like you can't cope with your workload and won't do you any favours.

[Me624]

I'm a lawyer. My contract says something like "your core working hours are 9-5.30, however you are expected to work such additional hours as are required by the demands of the role" or something equally wishy washy.

I work in a firm with a very good work life balance for the industry. My area tends to have peaks and troughs so I will go months of working very long hours followed by several quiet months where I can do much more sensible hours. However I rarely leave before 6 even during sensible times. There is not a culture of presenteeism but if the work is urgent and it needs doing then it has to be done before you can go.

You always get the odd person who does not accept this culture - one of my colleagues leaves the office at dead on 5.30 every day. She will never be promoted, maybe she is happy with that.

I am soon to be going off on mat leave with DC1 and I am terribly worried about how my career will be affected on my return. DH is going to do his share of pick ups but there will still be 2-3 days a week where I simply have to leave on time.

[gandalf456]

If you don't get overtime, you should go home. Where I work, we get overtime and only stay if asked

[MrsClusterfuck]

Good estate agents know that people who view properties at weekends / evenings, tend to be more serious buyers so they work outside of normal hours

As a recent house seller, that is complete rubbish. Estate agents are contracted to work outside of 'normal hours', they don't do it as extra because its expected.

[AnnPerkins]

Like fredfredgeorge, I thought this culture was on the way out. Certainly I think of it as very oldfashioned. Makes me think of Gordon Gekko-types in the 80s.

I think downing tools at 5pm prompt is oldfashioned too though. Unless you work somewhere public-facing which closes at a set time or somebody takes over your job at the end of your shift.

I see a generally more flexible attitude in the majority of workplaces today, though, from both staff and employers.

[OnlyLovers]

your core working hours are 9-5.30, however you are expected to work such additional hours as are required by the demands of the role"

I'm not a lawyer or anything remotely high-flying, but my contract says that too. I'd guess that kind of thing is common to many areas of work. It IS wishy-washy and obviously designed to cover the employer's arse.

[mackerella]

I also worked for a Big 4 accountancy firm 15 years ago and encountered exactly this attitude: people hanging around pointlessly at the end of the day so they didn't leave first or before the manager. Unpaid overtime is one thing (as a pp mentioned, that is expected in most professional jobs), but this was just clockwatching after all the work was finished

Possibly related was the fact that management used to email round league tables at the end of each month, showing the chargeable hours billed by each person at each grade. This actively encouraged employees to kill time while on audits so they could log more chargeable hours for that company and so rise up the league table.

(I now work in the public sector, where unpaid extra hours are still expected but that sort of cynical, showy presenteeism isn't really encountered.)

[Butteredparsnips]

What Unexpectedsocialist said. It is a culture that really affects people with caring responsibilities, who are on the whole female. When my DC were younger, I worked for an organisation that arranged weekly project meetings at 8am. Even though I had a flexible working agreement to work 9:30 to 18:00, I still had to make this meeting in order to do my job.

[BeStrongAndCourageous]

Isn't it like that everywhere now? I don't know anyone who only works their contracted hours.

I hate it, personally, and when working (am now a SAHM) was quite vocal about how it wasn't a good thing, that if someone couldn't keep to their contracted hours all that indicated to me was either a problem with their workload or their ability to manage it.

[rogueantimatter]

You'd think now that everyone has an annual (or more frequent) appraisal there would be the opportunity - at least in theory - to demonstrate how well you're doing. So office hours should be less significant? [hopeful face]

[middlings]

I once worked somewhere where my contracted hours were til 6pm. I was generally the first to leave, at 6! One of my colleagues rather shamefacedly told me that the boss ran out the door at 6.05pm to be home for his children's dinner time and that if I waited five minutes, he just presumed everyone was working late.

I didn't bother. I got on very well with him and only left the job as I left the country!

[Alisvolatpropiis]

Presenteeism is ridiculously.

I've worked in the legal field and you do see a lot of it but depending on the role it can be detrimental, as I'm sure it can in other industries, if your manager does not hold much with the whole concept.

I work to rule, unless there is something on which requires me to stay late, and then I will. Is my work less good than my colleague who stays an hour later for no reason, no.

I know someone who was effectively managed out of their job because their minor mistakes, coupled with coming in early, working through lunch and staying late gave the impression they couldn't handle the role. Alone those minor mistakes would have been discussed and assuming they didn't happen again, all would have been fine.

[chrome100]

My first job was like that. No one left before 7 at the earliest. I didn't give a fuck and left at 530 as I was contracted. Everyone bitched about me but I was on 14k a year and worked hard whilst I was there so didn't see the point of staying for the sake of it.

It was a terribly badly run organisation with very low wages and very high staff turn over.

[Pilgit]

I'm a lawyer in the city. I work ridiculous hours. I am currently on sick leave as the stress has induced a heart problem. I will have to work less and do fewer hours when I go back. This will screw up my career - it's not so much presenteism as the expectation to constantly do more with less resource. I work the hours because I have to to get the job done. I've been doing the work of two. It has to stop. Work aren't going to like it but I don't want to die before 60 so it's tough shit.

I hate the long hours culture. I have countless examples of where it has resulted in big mistakes being made. But that's just factored in as a cost that's worth swallowing because of the savings made by employing less people. Deeply frustrating.

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

I worked in one of the big accountancy firms 30+ years ago (before there was a Big Four! I think it was the Big 7 or 8 then) and presenteeism was already a feature then, but largely restricted to those who wanted to be partners. I thought it was idiotic then and I still do now. It was and is undoubtedly harder for anyone with caring responsibilities to get on in a workplace with a culture like that. I was moderately ambitious when I started but I was also married and very keen to have children in the near future. I could see that I couldn't combine success in that firm with spending enough time with my husband and children. So I left, and have never regretted it.

There was one exceptionally bright manager in my division who was probably in his 30s then. He was married with two young children. He arrived at work shortly after 7am, worked flat out for several hours, took a longish lunch break (sometimes in the pub - that might not happen now) and then put in a few more hours. By 5.30-6pm he was knackered and usually took a break of a couple of hours, again frequently in the pub. Then it was back to the office for another hour or two before he went home. So he was nominally at work from 7am to 9pm but not working efficiently all that time - probably about 8-9 hours of chargeable work, albeit augmented by networking time with colleagues in the pub or larking around in the office.

I wasn't greatly surprised to hear after I left that his marriage had broken down. He made it to partner but at great cost.

There was a manager in another division who was one of the first female partners in the firm. She also got divorced along the way and lost custody (as it was termed then) of her children to her ex-husband because he successfully argued that she worked such long hours that she would never see them. Sexist assumption, as he was also in a professional job but had a new wife who was not, and the idea was that she would take on the main caring role.

So, so glad to be out of all that now. It's not a healthy way to live.

[ProjectPerfect]

As (another) in house lawyer I'd say it's got better rather than worse over the years, although I accept that is in part due to having already risen through the ranks.

I no longer feel need to compete with anyone so I mostly leave the office "on time" although of course there are frequent evening calls etc - but at least that is flexible.

My team frequently stay later - despite me telling them not to.