to think this is not a workplace culture that should be encouraged

[jazzingaround]

A friend's son has just started a new job and was telling my friend that 'it's not the done thing' to leave the office at your contracted time. Apparently everyone hangs around, not wanting to be the first to go, finding stuff to do, deliberately sending emails to their managers so the time will show up etc etc.

AIBU to find this increasingly prevalent attitude sad and unhealthy? Obviously, in some jobs, long hours are unavoidable. In others, staff are overloaded and unwillingly working ridiculous hours.

But people deliberately and needlessly hanging around the office after their contracted working day is finished, and management encouraging and rewarding this kind of behaviour, seems like a backward step to me.

cdtaylornats ATC?, Air Traffic Control is that?.

This is very common in sales/commission based jobs. I did recruitment for a while and I was already long hours (8:30-6:30 with an hour and a half commute each way) and it was an unwritten rule that you'd arrive early and leave late. I didn't last very long in that industry.

But in my experience, 9-5 these days is a myth. I've never ever had an 8 hour day in any full-time job I've done.

But in my experience, 9-5 these days is a myth. I've never ever had an 8 hour day in any full-time job I've done

Always has been in my experience. I start late (10) I've been on holiday for 2 and a half weeks and go back tomorrow. I expect to be at work tomorrow from 10 until at least 9p.m. I don't expect I will have a lunch break.

This sounds like what my husband once described in a workplace he once worked at, albeit 30 years ago.

People not wanting to leave work before the boss left........whatever that was supposed to mean.

He knew of an employee who worked long days and weekends thinking she was doing the right thing. No, she was just being used for extra hours by the bosses.

I've worked for a local authority. I did not know the phrase, 'presenteeism' then, but looking back now, that's exactly what was going on.

Staff had their flexi-time cancelled as a cost saving measure. Management grades kept their nine day fortnights. Very nice too.

Especially as a new boss that came along to fill a vacancy saw what an existing boss was getting, i.e. a nine day fortnight. Applied for, and got, the nine day fortnight. Basically, get every other Friday off if you've done the two week's work in nine days. This is done by staying late, short lunch breaks etc.

My time was being monitored so closely I remember once phoning my boss as I was entering the building. This is because it took five minutes to walk up three flights of stairs to the third floor where the office was. Therefore it meant I would not arrive at my desk until 9.05 am. That is a true story.

Basically I suspect someone had whined about my timekeeping so to keep that person sweet, I had to be extra careful about my arrival and returning from lunch. So that person didn't have cause to go whining to my boss again.

However, my boss did once remark to me in a 1-2-1 session that, 'we're all being watched.' I thought, blimey, you too ?

Oh, and the other little gem that the bosses decided upon for us was, 'be at your desk, logged into your phones by 08.55am' Really ? So that adds up to 25mins a week. An hour and a half a month, multiply that by 12 and we're owed time off. No, so how about overtime ? No again ? Who knew. Basically, people were being accused of coming to work, getting a tea or coffee etc then logging into their computer, phone etc.

Even though the operational team we were supporting (who pretty much came and went as they pleased, unless there was someone in who they wanted to gossip with) could do just that.

The quite obvious one rule for one and another rule for others was one of the many reasons I wasn't sorry to leave.

However, my boss did once remark to me in a 1-2-1 session that, 'we're all being watched.' I thought, blimey, you too ?

I am an employer , not an employee but yes I'm being watched as much as any of the employees.

I work in the city. We don't work long days unless there is a proper reason to do so (in which case we stay as long as we need to) and we can work from home when it suits us, as long as there is no particular reason to be in the office. If I saw someone working excessive hours on a regular basis, I would be concerned that they weren't coping with the workload.

What would you say is a long day and a normal day?

all depends on what the job is....doctors, nurses, police, ambulance, firefighters regularly work after their contracted hours...you cant just leave if you are in an emergency situation...if its an office i suspect the ones who stay behind and do extra are the ones who want to work their way up.

In Japan the culture is that it is disrespectful to leave before your boss.

So the subordinate is literally stuck there at their desk killing time, until their manager decides to leave. How soul destroying is that!

When I moved offices I was amazed that almost everyone left on the dot of 5 - it was like a mass exodus from the building. I do it myself now though because I can't wait to leave.
Management is poor and there is no consistency. I asked to leave early once for an appointment and offered to work my lunch so no time was lost. They refused stating that I must have a break. I pointed out that a few weeks earlier I had done 10 hour days when they were begging people to come in early and work through lunch Suffice to say that I have now found another job.

I've always worked my standard hours even in offices I've worked at where the culture is presenteeism. I've been quite stubborn about it as I always get my work done within my hours so I refuse to work unpaid overtime for no reason. If I ever need to stay late or come in early then I absolutely will, but for a reason. Where I work now is brilliant for that, its so flexible. But I was really honest in the interview and said look, I'm happy to work extra when needed but I'm not happy to work somewhere where the culture is you have to be at your desk late. My boss was happy with that and always says now she liked that I was upfront about what I wanted.

I think people should ask more at interview about this kind of thing. Working culture is so important and I think people often forget that an interview is not just seeing if someone is right for the job, but someone seeing if the job is right for them. I interviewed someone recently who didn't tell us she had a young baby as she thought that would mean we'd think she wouldn't work late or come in early. Whereas the reality in our office is loads of people have kids so it's really flexible.

Hate hate hate this. I worked in an office like this for a very short time. If the boss was about people would loudly arrange meetings and come in early for them so it didn't take up working hours.
They pulled me up on the fact I was at my desk at half 8 exactly and left on the dot of 5 when the boss was in ear shot. I told them I had excellent time management skills and stomped off to job search.
Horrid atmosphere.

I'm a barrister. I'm self employed and earn a fee for each hearing I do. If I'm in court, I'm there until the hearing is finished or the judge wants to go home. Sometimes that's 11am, occasionally 7pm. Preparation is usually done at home. If it takes an hour, I'm free for the rest of the day. If it takes until midnight, so be it. There's nobody watching me.

I do think it's industry related. I work in tech and it's generally very flexible, working from home is not a problem on a regular basis, time in and out/ breaks etc are not tracked really unless someone is not performing - then they may be "watched".
Part of the reason for this culture is, I think, to do with the fact that good staff in my industry are in demand, so flexible work options are considered to be a perk and are almost assumed to go hand in hand with the industry nowadays (à la Google et al).
However you are expected to work your arse off, stay late or be available for late/ weekend work (with notice, and only if you are agreeable) on certain occasions due to deadlines or ad hoc demands from clients.

However in my previous 2 jobs, you were expected to sit until x time, even if you had nothing to do - working from home was frowned on as you would be "dossing" supposedly. Every company is different.

your core working hours are 9-5.30, however you are expected to work such additional hours as are required by the demands of the role

I've had this in a couple of jobs. In both case, the first time a knobhead manager tried to enforce it the conversation went like this:

Manager: we need you to stay behind regularly to complete xyz
Me: is overtime double time here?
Manager: sorry but we don't pay overtime
Me: so you expect me to work for free?
Manager: the terms of your contract state you are expected to work extra hours
Me: absolutely! And I am happy to do so. But not for free. I am prepared to work additional hours for standard 1:1 overtime until 8pm then time and a half after, with double time at weekends. Alternatively, perhaps we need to recruit sufficient manpower to ensure that there is enough staff to do the job required?
Manager: errr. Can we discussed this next week?
Me: happy to once you have cleared the overtime rate with HR.

In both cases the above conversation did my career no harm at all. I worked my hours with occasional extra if required. I remained with each organisation for a considerable amount of time (one over fifteen years) with successive promotions. In both cases I was never asked again (without an offer of overtime pay). I was highly respected for refusing to be a doormat and give my valuable time for nothing.

I am a lawyer and I will only stay behind if I have deadlines to meet.
The problem with regularly working more than your contracted hours is that raises the expectations of the employer. Therefore, when you leave at your contracted hour, you
'have left early'
IMHO, technology means that one does not have to stay behind late as one can always work at home.

I agree with PPs that it's annoying when early working isn't deemed to be doing extra hours inthe same way that working late is. The people who pay attention and desire presenteeism sadly don't arrive in the office until much later and it appears that if they don't see it then it doesn't happen / count. The firm I trained at was a bit like that.

I'm now qualified and my firm is wonderful for flexibility and very few people work late. It's certainly not expected that you will. It IS expected that you'll do as many hours as it takes, but those can be early, at lunch, late or at home, it really doesn't matter. They know we have families we want to see and value their staff.

It's 'only' a top 100 regional firm, so not in the City, but I think the firm's ethos is very different from many (including many lesser) firms.

I'm a lawyer, by the way.

This used to happen at my husband's old work. The stupid thing was that a lot of people didn't work that hard when they were there- lots of banter and nipping out for food, but the important thing seemed to be staying late. Now he works somewhere smaller and everyone has their head down working all day and he usually leaves on time (by which I mean only half an hour to an hour late!) It's stupid to stay for the sake of it, if there's something that needs to be finished before you go, fine, but I hate the attitude that staying late=working harder.

When I was employed (lawyer) I was always far too busy to work my contracted hours.

The work could simply not be done between 9-5.

But I knew that would be the case when I became a lawyer and I was paid very very well.

I'm now self employed ( writer and academic) so how much work I do is up to me. And of course my income reflects this.
My colleagues who are employed by the university are extremely busy. They work long hours but not due to presenteeism. More that the job is so time consuming.

One reason why people end of staying late (to actually do some work as opposed to be seen to be in the office) is the constant meetings. I had an in-house legal job where I more or less worked regular hours 9-5. I got the job done and went home. BUT I went to very few meetings, dealing with things over the phone and by email or popping round to see someone so I got my issue dealt with in 10 minutes rather than sitting in a 2 hour meeting.

I eventually moved sideways in the organisation and a lovely lady replaced me in my original role. She routinely worked until 8pm because she was always in meetings in the day-time.

Many people waste so much time in pointless meetings.

Some years ago a friend told me that in Germany, if you did not leave on time, there would be concern that you were not up to the job.

That wasn't my experience when I worked there, but to be fair it was a UK law firm (though mainly staffed by German lawyers and support staff).

I work at home and my contracted hours are 8-1.30 each day. I routinely work later to meet my deadlines and have my emails on until about 6pm. However, as you can see, I stray onto social media during working hours, so it works out. My boss said to me just before Christmas that she knows I am working because the news bulletin I have to produce goes out each week regular as clockwork. She measures me by output not by the hours I sit at my computer.

I have also drafted an email at 4.59 and set it to send later in a previous role so it looked like I was still working at 6pm or whatever.

I worked in Japan some years ago where it astonished me that it was fine for people to sleep at their desks in the middle of the day (yes really!! and these were teachers in the staffroom) but not to leave before the boss (head teacher), whatever time he chose to leave.
In the UK I have been irritated by the amount of chat that goes on by men about cars and football results and then men people ostentatiously staying behind , or sending emails at 11pm etc.
As a WOHM I need to get the work done efficiently so I can leave and do all the other stuff.
Interestingly on one occasion when I managed a team, I had a complain form a client about the fact that one of my team sent out emails at eg 11pm on a Friday night, 2 am on Sunday etc... She said that if that person was not able to her job in office hours, were we working her too hard, or was she not efficient enough to get the job done in normal hours? She also said it was unsettling to get in on Monday morning to a stream of emails sent at weird times - you assumed it must be urgent and then it would some mundane detail.

My German publisher regularly emails me out if office hours.

Now if course she may be at home, but she is still working.

Agree that this has been going on for years.

When I worked in Advertising and PR there was almost a competition as to who could stay the latest. Then it was everyone to the pub.

It was a real eye opener when I went to work for a huge telecoms company where everyone was out of the door on the dot.