to ask my DP why we arent engaged yet?

[BumbleNova]

I dont know if I am being unreasonable or not. I probably am. We have been together 4 years, we have lived together for 3 1/2. I am sure we both want to spend the rest of our lives together, we have discussed it and we have agreed we want kids and (roughly) when we expect that to be.

So the issue is that "we" are buying a house together at the moment. well - I am buying the house (I earn a lot more than he does) with the understanding that it is intended to be our family home.

I am making a real and very hard earned commitment to our future. I have no problem that he isnt contributing financially, but I am unhappy that he isnt committing to me to the same degree? i.e that asking me to marry him should be his part of the deal?

we first looked at rings two years ago today. I honestly couldnt care less about a ring, I dont want a diamond. its what it symbolises. I feel very taken for granted.

how do I raise this in a non-accusatory way? I tried to raise it in a jokey way on holiday about a month ago and he got very defensive. I clearly tried the wrong tack. we got back from a few days just us in a very romantic place last night and I found myself crying silently in the kitchen when we got home. just sheer disappointment. help?!

Vatican that's the situation a lot of a SAHM are in. After a few years, the house will be jointly owned once they are married, regardless of who is on the deeds. Even more so if he stops his job to become a SAHP.

It's an unpalatable truth to a lot of women but in these situations, they do take the risk of losing their home, their dcs (they aren't the main career of the dcs) and to pay some CM. Which then makes you wonder. Who is loosing more there? (I'm assuming the OP would be decent of course)

I reckon most men don't even want to get married, they only do it because of nagging from their partner, hence the dragging their feet and "we can't afford to get married" BS. Men want to keep their options open, and marriage means they have no clear escape route if they get cold feet or have a crisis.

I think women need to make it clear what they want very early on. Set a timeframe and stick to it. None of this be together and move in, 5 years later talk about getting engaged, then eventually trying to coax the bloke to agree to a date for the wedding. If a man really want to marry you, he will do it within two years.

Just a thought - given your relative financial circumstances, might he feel diffident about asking you to marry him?

I think that's feasible. But whatever the facts, our ill informed speculation can only take you so far . You just need to discuss it with him and see how he feels, make your plans accordingly.

Harsh AF. I think its perfectly plausible, and not at all unusual to have tax issues such as OP describes, without being a tax dodging weaver of fairytales
EuVat and related dealings are a fucking nightmare for the best intentioned of persons

And Jessie I thought OP said she did work in law?

I think this is a drama over nothing. I think OP has the 'perfect order' of how it's 'meant to be', in her head. Reality is that people go at different paces, even if they have the same goals.

I'd buy the house, charge him rent and see how things pan out. I'm inclined to believe the tax stuff and therefore think the guy maybe under stress atm.

So if you marry, in the unfortunate event that you divorce, he has to pick up and leave 'your' house, and presumably leave the children that he has spent years being the SAHD to?

No. If they were married and he was the SAHP she'd probably have to leave the house and children to him and make herself scarce.

And then she might even have to pay spousal maintenance.

He is possibly about to be made bankrupt due to tax issues.
He does not want to work if you have children.

Seriously you can dump him and find better. He is a freeloader do not marry him.

Eh? Why on God's earth don't you just propose to him then!?

I really don't get this attitude at all.

Hi BumbleNova,

No comment on the house purchase or the tax issue - plenty of sensible things have been said already! However, I think it is worth considering a different point of view when it comes to him asking you to marry him and getting defensive when you ask him about it...

I was in a similar position a few years ago - DP and I had been together for more than 7 years (since our early twenties), had already had lots of conversations about the future, and had already bought a flat together. However, there was no sign of a ring - I was beginning to wonder if we would ever get married!

Like you, I tried to bring it up jokingly while we were on holiday, and, like your DP, my DP was not too pleased about having that conversation. But it turned out that it WASN'T because he didn't want to marry me - in fact, he proposed less than six months later (and, it turns out, was already looking at rings when we had that awkward conversation).

When we chatted about it later, he said that he got defensive because he sort of felt that asking me to marry him was his decision, and that he wanted it to be something that came from him - not something that looked as if he had been talked into. He was worried that the fact that I had brought it up meant that, when he did actually propose, I might think that it was just because I had asked him to, and not because he genuinely wanted it. We are now very happily married with a baby on the way.

Anyway, the point is that you shouldn't assume that he doesn't want to marry you just because he hasn't proposed yet. In today's world, four years is not a ridiculously long relationship - he may be completely committed, but just not feel quite ready for marriage (he may think of it as something that "grown-ups" do, and might not think of himself in that way yet, for example). If he really does not want to marry you, then pushing the issue and giving ultimatums will not make him any more likely to want to do so. And if he does want to marry you, then giving him an ultimatum might sour the whole process.

Ultimately, you need to ask yourself (and only you can know) whether you believe that his commitment to you is genuine - with or without the symbol of marriage. I knew that DP (now DH) was fully committed to our relationship - although I wanted to get married, I didn't think that not being married meant that he was not committed to our future together. Take the house purchase, the tax issues, and the marriage out of the equation - is this someone who you are committed to spending the rest of your life with, and does he feel the same about you?

You are both 30 - this is interesting. You both like the idea of marriage, children, a family home etc. You see this as somehting that can and should happen now, and are arranging to make that happen. Could it be that he sees this as something that he'd like to have at some point in the future, but not something he's actively planning on in the short - medium term. You are buying a house, great, he can live in it when he's in the UK, even better, you are letting him encourage you to buy one that he likes, but it's not a sign of commitment from him, he has not tied himself to you at all.

At 30, if he wants to faff about for 10 years before settling down, then he's not the man for you.

He might not really want marriage and DCs or just not want those things with you, or he might be one of those men who sees himself still as early to mid-20s even though he's older and marriage and DCs are for 'older people', so it takes his friends starting to buy 'family' houses, have weddings and DCs to think that it might be something he should be planning too.

If I was you, I'd go ahead with buying a house, but one that suits you. I would mentally give him 12 months, particularly if those 12 months includes some weddings of contempories and some friends becoming parents. After that, end it and start looking for someone who wants the same things as you on the same timeframe.

I would not buy a house with nor frankly plan on marriage and children with someone who after a number of years of dating was still so ambivalent about me.

As others have said, he sounds as though he is just coasting with you while he gets himself sorted out (the financial woes / "naivete" are a huge red flag to me). I don't think he ever is going to become the proactive, decisive and committed individual you have in mind.

thegirlfromipanema I knew she was a lawyer but unless she specialises in residential property she will have no appropriate experience or training that would give her an automatic understanding of the legal requirements here. since she's earning a good wage I doubt very much that she does Landlord and tenant or residential conveyancing. I am also a lawyer so know how the precession works. I have 17 years'experience but would not dream of doing my own property law documentation.

Precession=profession.

There's also the possiblity that he won't propose until he's got his finances sorted, it could be a pride thing, not wanting to be seen as needing to be 'kept' by his DW. Not wanting to propose until he can afford a ring, to pay for a wedding and stag, not wanting to get married with debts hanging over him so that your family might think he's just marrying you to be 'kept', even if you don't see it that way.

If he is a decent person, he would not dream of asking you to enter into a legal and financial contract with him and put your financial stability at risk until his tax issues are entirely resolved. Engaged is a non-status, it means nothing. You would be mad to marry him unless and until his tax affairs are resolved, and why on earth would he ask you, when he presumably knows you to be a rational, intelligent woman, so would have to decline?

I get that you feel left behind if all your friends are getting engaged, but really, with the HMRC after him, he is not in a position to marry. If he loves you, he won't want to take you down with him.

The fact that you don't seem able to talk to him is a whole other thing.

he sounds like a bit of a liability

I think he is trying to manoeuvre you in to feeling that he will be doing you a favour by agreeing to marry you

he's dangling himself in front of your but tantalizingly out of reach to give the impression that he is a prize worth chasing

it would seem that the reverse is true

Fascinating replies on here today and much of the usual MN hypocrisy. It seems as if, for some on here, the penny is starting to drop; that being the main breadwinner (and therefore the secondary parent) is - especially in the event of a divorce - far from fun.

Very odd how many of the same contributors that fill the AIBU and Relationships boards with advice on how to LTB and guarantee in-situ residency and full custody are often the same ones who are appalled at the prospect of women such as the OP losing the house and custody in the event of a break-up.

I'm afraid, that's not what equality looks like. And, as we see women overtaking men in Law, Medicine etc and increasingly out-earning them, we'll see more women losing their family homes and custody of the children.

And so ye sow....

in my experience if men know they want to get married to a person they propose very quickly (in the first year) I have seen it time and time again ...the ones who know they are with the right one propose quick and the unsure ones, well, don't. its not rocket science tbh

sorry op i just think he doesn't want to get married. i think its shitty he is happy to let you buy a home yet doesn't want to marry you. please don't buy a house for him, get rid and buy it for yourself. the right one will come along ..x

I have been on both sides - I have been the long term dp of a man and waited and waited years for him to propose, he finally did, we got married and were divorced within a year. looking back we have both said knew it wasnt right (we are friends now as he is dad to one of my dc)

my current dh proposed after six months, we have been married five years now and very happy

as we see women overtaking men in Law, Medicine etc and increasingly out-earning them

or seeing that it is not in their interests to have children and make a family home in the first pace
Stay single, look after your own financial future and you need never take the risk of committing yourself to a man

Suzanne, if that was so, it would surely have been men's behaviour over the last few millennia?

However, is definitely is a trend amongst men in Japan. They're increasingly eschewing marriage and children because of the pressures of Japanese culture/workplaces and are staying single (30% of adult Japanese men have never even dated a woman!). Hence their demographic time-bomb.

Suzanne, if that was so, it would surely have been men's behaviour over the last few millennia

only if things were symmetrical
you seem to be assuming that both sides have equal bargaining power
not to mention the fact over the last few millennia circumstances have changed vastly
power shifts all the time

Very interesting thread.

I agree with Babycham:

Very odd how many of the same contributors that fill the AIBU and Relationships boards with advice on how to LTB and guarantee in-situ residency and full custody are often the same ones who are appalled at the prospect of women such as the OP losing the house and custody in the event of a break-up.

The OP's OH is planning to give up what sounds like a serious career to be a SAHD. From what OP says, it sounds like he's committed to her (whether or not he wants to get this officially endorsed in marriage), and his potential nonchalance about getting married implies (if we're going to interpret it at all) that he is not bothered about getting his hands on her cash. So far so good.

We have behavioural models (e.g., men proposing to women; marriage) which were formed in very different times.

In any case, OP, I hope this works out well for you both, whichever direction the issue goes in. Posters advising open discussion sound very sensible to me.

I think you're right about gender asymmetry and power shifting all the time, Suzanne. I think it's really hard to predict how society will change as women increasingly take over professions and so gain material power. For instance, the fact that men can potentially father as many offspring as they like with relatively little personal cost, whereas women have to chose their sperm donors more carefully (even if not materially dependent on them) makes direct flips in roles seem unlikely.

'there is a risk (that is being dealt with) that HMRC could seize his assets and/or make him bankrupt. to protect me until it is all sorted, it makes more sense to keep our finances separate, just in case.'

Oh, FFS! Is this guy the shag of the century? Because I can't see why anyone would want to marry someone with this much baggage, male or female and especially one who obviously doesn't want to marry you.

I got divorced at 30. It's far from too late to find someone else or even go it alone when it comes to a family because being alone is much better than going it with a fucking millstone tied round your neck.

yeah agree with expat

also I would not be dancing around dropping hints and bringing up marriage etc, if the guy wants to do it he will do it...if not you have your answer

From where I'm sitting, he's being pretty daft. If he were my friend, as the less wealthy of the two and the putative SAHP, I'd be telling him it was in his interests to marry. Living in someone else's house and raising your mutual kids without the legal protection of marriage or an income of your own is a risky choice. I suppose the tax stuff is one explanation for the delay but again, once that's sorted, in his shoes I'd be doing my best to tie my wagon to you OP.