Bible from school

[user7755]

DS goes to a standard secondary (not a religious school), he came home last week with a bible.

I remember we got them when we were kids but I had forgotten thought we had moved on since then

DS doesn't believe in God, his choice and nothing to do with us. But I'm just really shocked and irritated at this act, presumably an attempt to spread the word and indoctrinate kids into organised religion.

I am very, very anti organised religion right now, following a historical abuse case involving our family which has just been through the court and involved a vicar, so very aware that I'm probably oversensitive.

Is it me? AIBU?

DioneTheDiabolist
Religion and science are compatible in the lives of religious scientists. They are also compatible in the lives of believers who use inventions, medicine and have a general interest in science.

That's your premise? That's like saying engine oil and tea are compatible in the lives of mechanics, but you're not going to pour a flask of tea into your engine, are you? Tea has its place, 15W40 has its place, and they are two separate places.

"r scientifically proven drugs to manage side effects of treatment. But if others want to pursue different methods that offer them comfort be it a placebo effect or whatever then good for them. I don't get on my high horse and think 'how dare they try and indoctrinate me with this nonsense'.

Well, I would be pretty poised off if any of the leaflets suggested that the alternative therapies cured cancer. Wouldn't you?

itsmine
In our oncology department there are lots of pamphlets handed out by volunteers giving info on reiki, hypnotherapy and aromatherapy available in the oncology centre.

I prefer scientifically proven drugs to manage side effects of treatment. But if others want to pursue different methods that offer them comfort be it a placebo effect or whatever then good for them. I don't get on my high horse and think 'how dare they try and indoctrinate me with this nonsense'.

Any info being circulated and available really doesnt mean we are being indoctrinated or it is being rammed down our necks. Make an informed decision to accept or ignore. It really is very simple.

Medicine/alternative medicine is one area where I believe false "information" under the guise of pretty marketing pamphlets could prove very dangerous to vulnerable people. Trying to claim some nice-smelling herbs, homeopathy and someone placing their hands on your body while sending healing thoughts is going to in some way be as (or more) effective as a course of radiotherapy or chemotherapy is laughable.

The problem is some people want to believe it, and some woo-woo leaflet claiming mystical health benefits from a 50,000,000 dilute solution of onion juice that keeps harmony between body and nature/Mother Earth/Gaia may well sound a lot better than, "we're going to make you really, really ill while we try to cure you." While I support anyone's right to choose to die instead of live, I firmly believe these alternative 'treatments' transmit the wrong information to people who need real help, not fantasy.

In the words of Tim Minchin: "By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. Do you know what they call "alternative medicine" that's been proved to work? Medicine."

itsmine
but I fully respect other people's right to swear by them and say reiki cured their nausea when anti emetics didn't. I'm not going to start arguing the science with them.

Right up to the point that someone overhears them and thinks, "wow, that sounds great! I bet it works for me too!" and then decidedly doesn't.

Why on earth would receiving a bible indoctrinate somebody. I get that jehovas witness pamphlet regularly pushed through my door. I have a choice whether to read it or bin it. Children get taken to visit churches and mosques. Is that indoctrinating also? What a big fuss about nothing. Equally if a child receives a bible and he wants to read it, so what.....I'd be pleased he showed an interest. But that's me. People must have pretty worry free lives to get in such a strop over things like this.

itsmine
I don't know if anyone has said anything cures cancer? The op was bothered that a bible being circulated 'indocrinated' her son. No, information being available doesn't do that.

Information being available does cast doubt, and it has the worst effects on people with poor critical thinking skills, because they don't know how to evaluate the relative worth of two pieces of conflicting information.

I'm all for seeing all sides of an issues, but the premise of science is that claims are tested, observed, repeated and checked, and the shite gets found out and thrown out on the pile that already contains the idea of sprinkling bird blood on leprosy sufferers.

What study was that Kerala?

It's ok, I found it.

Could you post a link please Dione/Kerala?

Not good at links but this is the article

www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/06/religious-children-less-altruistic-secular-kids-study

Must say I slightly tense when people use the argument that religion promotes better moral behaviour for having religious schools.

This study supports what I have found anecdotally, many of the kindest most community minded helpful people I know are not religious in the slightest. The most unkind malicious person I know is a full on evangelical Christian. Being properly religious does not make you a better person. Lovely decent people are Christian of course but being religious alone doesn't mean you behave better (IMO of course)

Kerala, I'm sure you are right that there are many, many decent people who are not religious. No-one in their right mind would dispute it.

But this is an entirely different argument from the OP about a boy being given a bible in school.

itsmine

Which isn't indoctrination.

I never said it was. I just said it could be unhelpful and counterproductive.

We all have to go through life making informed decisions

As long as the information given to us isn't made up.

I don't know if this was an informed choice or not, but it I'm always reminded of this on the subject of alternative medicine:

"In July 2002, at the age of 51, {Barry} Sheene was diagnosed with cancer of the oesophagus and stomach.[22] Refusing conventional treatments involving chemotherapy, Sheene instead opted for a holistic approach involving a strict diet devised by Austrian healer Rudolf Breuss, intended to starve the cancer of nourishment.[1][22][26]

"He died peacefully surrounded by his family at a hospital on Queensland's Gold Coast in 2003, aged 52, having suffered from the condition for eight months."

Fantastic bike racer, but I think he was a bit of a muppet for this choice, if his goal was to either extend his life significantly or completely recover.

It's linked. The bible being given out is a symptom of the inclusion of religion into schools. I have heard many times that this is fine because religion is good and promotes better behaviour. IMO this isn't necessarily true.

Dione- don't forget the names of those scientists, will you?

Must have been god's plan mittens. I am sure his family are taking comfort...

Maybe my head just isn't wise enough to fathom it all. Thinking about the size of the universe and the possibilities of it all actually makes my head hurt. I just don't have room in my brain to think about the administrative nightmare it must be to keep track of everyone's divine plan whilst simultaneously giving them free will to fuck it up. So in essence I must be too stupid for religion.

myotherusernameisbetter
The original worshipers of the god that christians worship now were Jews, then came Christianity so what happens?

The Jews believed in God and were looking towards the coming of the Messiah.

The Christians believe in God and are looking back to the coming of the Messiah, which is what Christmas is all about (Jesus the Messiah).

Some Jews believe Jesus was the Messiah, some believe he was just a good man. A Jew that believes Jesus WAS the Messiah is technically a Christian, since the New testament says there is no difference with how you approach God, whether you're a Jew, Gentile, male or female, etc.

And then of course Muslims worship the same god but their heaven is filled with virgins (of whatever religion I am not sure).

The religion you speak of is Islam, and it's not the same God. Islam is a religion based on the bible but with a few twists. It came about around 600 years after the bible and so you can work out which was the original and who copied who!

God is quite clear: not all roads lead to Rome when it comes to gods and God. We are told to have no other gods and Jesus said "I am the way the truth and the life. No man comes to the father BUT BY ME."

So, technically the current Jews and Christians disagree, so is their heaven split as they apparently believe in the same god, but obviously, prior to christianity, jews and christians did not disagree as Christians didn't exist.

Gentiles (non-Jews) were able to follow the God of the Jews, just as non-Christians can have access to God in the modern day. Its all about choice. Don't forget, some Jews believe Jesus was the Messiah they had all been waiting for, and those Jews agree with the Christians. Remember also that the early Christians were all Jews to start with, and the only difference was the acceptance that Jesus was who he said he was: the awaited Messiah.

So does current heaven as Christians see it consist of only Christians or Christians plus Jews who existed prior to christianity or what?

Anyone who, as John 3:16 says: whosoever "believes in HIM" shall have eternal life with God. Believe in him isn't saying "is a good person" or "was baby baptised".... that would be works. And we are not saved through our works, whether Jew or Gentile. It is by GRACE you have been saved, through faith, and not of your own works. As Ephesians 2:8 says "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

A gift for all, whether Jew or Gentile.

Thank you for taking the time to respond SBGA . Much appreciated.

I can't forget the names of the book writing scientists Bert, I didn't know them to begin with. My interest in both science and religion are insufficient that I would read or be bought such books. I do know they exist though. A bit like RC cardinals, I know they exist but I'd struggle to name one.

Do you not believe that they exist Bert? Have you tried google?

You have said several times that there are many scientists who are also people of faith, and have challenged people who question this - but you don't have any examples to back up your assertion? Really?