AIBU to want dd to have traintrack braces but no teeth removed?

[Italiangreyhound]

AIBU to want dd to have traintrack braces but no teeth removed?

The orthodontist says my dd (11) needs train track braces to straighten her teeth.

The waiting list is about 18 months.

Since about 8 days old dd has sucked her thumb and nothing I have ever been able to do has helped her to stop (despite her saying she wants to stop!). So we have 18 months for her to stop so she can get her teeth straightened.

When she finally does stop thumb sucking and gets to the top of the list the orthodontist says she will need train track braces to straighten her teeth and in order to do this the orthodontist will take out two teeth.

I did not really think anything of it until a friend told me that they don't need to take out teeth nowadays with traintrack braces.

Can anyone tell me how it has worked for them or their child, please?

DD is terrified of having teeth removed and if it is not necessary I would rather avoid it.

I'm surprised our orthodontist didn't talk to us about the option not to remove teeth, especially as the NHS website seems to suggest it is not very common tp remove teeth now- " But, as a result of recent advances in orthodontic treatment, removing teeth has become much less common."

My dd has only had one baby tooth removed and that virtually fell out as it was stuck at an odd angle - think 'Nanny McFee'!

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Orthodontics/Pages/Howitisperformed.aspx

"Removing teeth

In some cases, it may be necessary to remove a tooth to correct the position and appearance of nearby teeth. But, as a result of recent advances in orthodontic treatment, removing teeth has become much less common.

However, if baby teeth have been extracted, there is a greater likelihood that adult teeth will need to be extracted as part of orthodontic treatment."

Thanks.

agree with getting a second opinion, we were given one from within the same nhs orthodontist practice and twin blocks were suggested the second time for dds particular issue (lower jaw too small) I had the same small lower jaw and taking teeth out did nothing to fix that. It is still too small. To get it sorted as an adult would mean jaw surgery and that seemed very drastic and very very expensive. I didn't want dd to face the same issue.

DD had to have 2 teeth out as there wasn't room for her canine teeth to descend so they were coming down over the other ones like fangs.
Her orthodontist told me that our jaws are much smaller than they used to be because our diet has changed and we don't chew as much. If you look at pictures of cave people, they have huge jaws. However, we still have the same number of teeth so lots of people just don't have enough room in their mouth. We'll probably eventually evolve to have fewer teeth - I read recently about some children being born without wisdom teeth. It was no bother having them out and her teeth will be lovely when they're all finished.

I agree with PPs - your orthodontist is the expert in your DDs teeth - the NHS would not do unnecessary procedures. Let the pilot fly the plane - don't tell him how to do it.
I was a thumbsucker until I was 13 and on the way to see the ortho for the first visit. I knew I had to stop or it would all be a waste of time.
So, I announced to the family that if any of them saw me doing it, they could take £10 of my pocket money. (That was a lot, back then!)
I trained myself to get to sleep by tucking my thumb INTO my fist, and pressing my fist onto my top lip as if I had thumb in mouth.
Never did it again.
Good luck, it will all be worth it.

I was also a thumb sucker (I stopped after my mother kindly told all of my friends - nothing makes you stop quicker than total humiliation ). I had to have four teeth removed at the same time under general - needed a couple of days off school with painkillers but otherwise was fine. They did straighten my teeth, but I still have an overbite. They were never going to do much for my larger front teeth. My dentist also said to wear the retainer forever more at night - would like to meet the person who could/can do that!

so blue, why did two nhs orthodontists in the same practice offer different proceedures? There is often more than one way to sort out teeth. Removing teeth I suspect is the cheapest way, but it may not be the best way.

I had 4 teeth removed before train tracks. I have a narrow face/ smallish jaw (recently had to buy glasses from the teenage range as adult glasses too wide!). I can't imagine how my teeth would have fitted without. Gave room for my wisdom teeth without problem and I have straight teeth now.

Ask questions but there may be specific reasons why this would be the best course of action.

OP is it the extraction itself you are worried about? It's not pleasant but my DD had it done. 3 teeth in a few minutes. I think the alternative (if possible at all) is a lot longer treatment(years) trying to expand the palette. I know that for my DD she wanted the contraption on for as short a time as possible even if that meant having teeth taken out. i had 4 out myself pre braces and it was fine, no mental scarring!

Ds had to have four teeth removed before braces (severe overcrowding) but were told that this was the best option, as to try and correct his teeth without removal would result in much longer treatment that would be a lot more painful.

The SmallDragons all had early treatment from age 7 which ensured there was enough room for all their adult teeth and that they came through in the right position. The older two have fabulous straight teeth, DDs arear headed that way.

For the thumbsucking, the football-socks-over-arms is what their orthodontist recommended. He was of the opinion that if you could break the night habit, the day would follow.

If the dentist says she needs them removed then it needs to happen. I had to have 4 removed for train tracks and have no gap where they used to be whatsoever. If she doesn't get them removed there won't be movement space for her teeth to straighten out.

If the dentist says she needs them removed then it needs to happen

That's simply not true. A dentist has said it. There are often different opinions from others - this might just be the easiest one and this dentist's preferred option.

My DS (12) had two teeth out last week and will have another three out in January before having braces. Four are baby teeth as the adult teeth are ready to come through but there is no movement in the baby teeth and one is an adult tooth as he has overcrowding. He had them out under sedation as he is terrified of dentists but he was great and it all went well.
I trust my orthodontist to know what's best for my son's teeth.

The teeth I had removed were just behind my canines I think?

Do look for Nail the Habit - it's different to the paint on stuff - much much worse

MyFriendsCallMeOh (love the name) Wow I'm in the USA where orthodontics are the norm (everyone has braces!) and I've never heard of anyone I know having teeth out for braces. I wonder why?!

Macsmurray Hi, glad your teeth worked out, re In essence what I'm saying is, if you trust your practitioner as a good professional, then trust their opinion, they don't go through 5 years of tough education for nothing. Well, curiously I do usually trust medical people, except that things change, practice changes, and things that were once normal are no longer done and things that weren't done are now done, and in some places things are done but not in other places, not. I was getting my child vaccinations like flu and she had the Pneumococcal vaccine when these things were not standard, because I read the facts and felt it was best. Now these vaccinations are standard. So I sometimes like to be questioning about what is best practice.

Plus when I had intense pain from a route canal problem one dentist told me that it was maybe from grinding my teeth and I should do jaw exercises! [crap advice alert in my case!!!!]

I think Seren85's post is an example of how the medical practitioners do not always get it right.

Seren85 I am so sorry to hear of your experiences. Can they now be fixed? I usually find I look better when I smile without showing my teeth anyway.

TrashPanda re ... my sister used to suck her fingers and nothing was stopping her until the orthodontist made a removable retainer type brace with a piece of wiggly metal facing down that made it impossible for her to fit them in her mouth. I was hoping the brace would be the the kind that made thumb sucking unsatisfying, e.g. the plate in the mouth that make it not feel 'nice'.

nooka re They should explain to you exactly why they are suggesting braces/removal, what it is to fix and how it will work. That way you can be confident of making the right decision yes, I must ask, I guess as we are on a waiting list we don;t know exactly what the teeth will look like when we get to 18 months in the future but by then if I don;t feel confident with the orthodontist I would have to go on another waiting list.

I had a removable appliance to widen my jaw and expand my palette for 2 years and still had 6 teeth our for my train tracks. My end result was lovely and getting the teeth out is no big deal. Sometimes people's mouths simply aren't big enough for 32 teeth to comfortably fit

Sorry pull my jaw forward not widen it

That's simply not true. A dentist has said it. There are often different opinions from others

It's extremely common for teeth to be removed when having train tracks, as often a cause of bad teeth is overcrowding and you can't sort that any other way. For the sake of two teeth being pulled I'd do it, think of how atrocious her teeth will be In adult life otherwise. Dh refused braces as a teenager as they weren't 'cool' and now he has god awful teeth and smile and wishes he'd done it. Not to be harsh but if it's just the small minor 'op' of pulling some teeth out its not going to cause much distress, in situations like this I always remind myself of toddlers having chemo/heart bypasses etc etc.

I felt the dentist and orthodontist were the ones with the qualifications and knew about this stuff so was happy to go with the advice.

Can you get a second opinion? I had 4 or 6 teeth out for braces (not sure how many) and it left too much room, the first treatment failed and. I had to go through it again in my 30s. The second treatment closed the gaps but there isn't actually enough space behind my teeth for my tongue now and it redically changed my face shape.

These replies are not in strict order, so many people have commented, trying to reply to as many as possible but getting a bit jumbled! Hope anyone who wanted a reply from me gets one!

firefly having my wisdom teeth out was not painful, not pleasant, but not painful if I recall rightly. What was painful was my crap boyfriend was due to take me home and for some reason did not n=so I went hoem by train and had not roper pain relief for when the anaesthetist thing wore off. make sure you have the things in place. I also had all four out at same time so had no 'side' to eat on and had to have my food mashed and my drinks through a bendy straw. Food doesn't taste so good with no texture. But if was OK, please do not worry, just be well prepared - e.g. I had time off work while I got better, I could not have just gone back to work the next day as I felt unwell, but then I was 21 and a total wuss at that time!

DefinitelyNotElsa wow that was so brave of you to make that decision and take the consequences.

stratter5 re If you don't trust him over a bunch of Internet randoms, you need to find a new one. Well, he is a she, and it is not that I don't trust her, I want to see if I am being unreasonable in questioning this, I certainly won't be asking anyone on mumsnet to do the actual work!

MinesAPintOfTea and firefly78 I am sorry that both your mums made that choice to not have things done that would help.

I want to avoid making the wrong choice, teeth out may be the right one.

Mappa, Leigh1980 and Math so glad it worked out well for you, and all others who posted here about their own experiences.

Math I know it seems strange but I take the kids for ice cream after a dental appointment! It is about the only time they have ice cream outside the middle of summer and it is a posh delhi that sells a special kind of ice cream. It is a treat for them, not a reward for whether they need treatment or not etc. So T totally understand your mum taking you for sticky meringues and the fact you remember that and not the pain, is great!

TotalConfucius and DeoGratias so glad it worked out well for your kids, and all others who posted here about their children.

OTiTO re I had a thumb sucker. The dentist put a ring on his thumb and he completely stopped in a few days. Could you put a cast on the finger to break the habit. I was amazed how immediate my DC lost the habit.

RandomMess re 8Long socks over BOTH hands taped around the wrists. Expect several nights of your DD finding it hard to get to sleep and stay asleep but it does work.* I will try it, I am afraid my dd could be an escapologist but I will not be defeated!!!!!

Hulababy yes, But it depend on which teeth and why they need to go surely? I need to find out why, I was not expecting it and it was all a bit of a blur!

Wow, excellent, by a cast do you mean like as if it were broken? What kind of ring did they use? That is an EXCELLENT idea, we have tried with gloves or socks in bed, on the hand, that anti thumb sucking thing you tie on that she worked out how to undo, that foul tasting nail polish and I tried reminding her, not reminding her, commenting on it, not commenting on it, showing her pictures of people with misshapen teeth on the internet, but I never thought of a ring! INSPIRED.

Mrsmorton re ... 24 teeth isn't unusual, just gives you no room for error if you need teeth out in the future. Can you say more about this please, do you mean if dd lost a tooth any time that having fewer teeth could make it harder to 'repair' or having more teeth could make it easier to 'repair'.

There have been so many replies (which I was not expecting) so thank you all, I am sorry if I cannot mention all names but I am VERY grateful for all replies.

Just for the record I am not worried about my daughter experiencing some pain or distress temporarily if it is necessary. I am not being 'precious' in wanting to avoid this treatment, I am concerned that it may not be necessary and I want to make the right choice. I don't think anyone has accused me of being precious' (yes she is my pfb), but in my own mind I am wondering, should I just accept was is told to me by one professional? But I know in my heart I cannot, I always like to feel I have made an informed decision if it matters, an in this case it does feel like it matters. I think I should ask the orthodontist why the teeth need to be removed and seek a second opinion.

I might also see if I can get a private consultation for just a second opinion. I wonder how much that is going to set me back!

EddieStobbart re My DD (9) currently has a removable plate to help her stop sucking her thumb. The orthodontist thought it was worth starting preliminary treatment now although she won't get train tracks for a few years. ... Could you get a plate before the brace and see if it helps? I was told this was not on offer on the NHS and would cost a lot, and may not be available from our orthodontist anyway, I did ask specifically about this. Trouble is we have been on this journey already about 18 months and i can't remember exactly what was said, I need to get an email from the orthodontist so I can mull over it, I do find conversations by phone a bit of a pain about medical stuff because once it is over you can't always remember all the details. I must ask about this when I get the second opinion. THANKS SO MUCH.

MackerelOfFact re What are your friend's dental/orthodontic qualifications? I think none, except that he can read things on the internet. Re By all means get a second opinion, but I'd suggest getting it from an orthodontist rather than your friend. definitely will!

If anyone would rather PM me about this stuff, (e.g costs of treatment etc), please do.

I'd get a 2nd opinion. just to be sure.

my DD started with a "plate", she was young 7 or 8 ? & had had to have milk tooth out because of an abscess new teeth doubling etc.... she was a thumb sucker, the ortho. said if she sucked her thumb he would attach a wire across to make it impossible. she stopped on day 1. she had it until her jaw grew, & all her adult teeth grew in. in the mean time, the new teeth were "guided" in straight, (previously big gap btw front teeth & buck teeth from thumb sucking.) then she had braces, for 2 years, then another plate to stabilise. no further tooth extraction
Everyone says she has perfect teeth

You can have all the lovely, expensive bracing you like done, however, if you don't factor in the impact that a full set of adult teeth, including wisdom teeth, will have on the projected adult jaw size of your DC, you might as well take the cash you would have spent and flush it down the toilet. DD has needed two sets of extractions and bracing - the first to correct adult teeth that had rotated and moved in the jaw to push out the wrong baby teeth and block other adult teeth from erupting. She had a beautiful lower set of teeth for about 6 weeks until pressure from erupting molars caused her wonderfully straight front teeth to crowd and move. We knew this would happen, though and had to go with it.

The first work allowed her adult teeth to come through. Her latest work has been to stabilise any movement of her adult teeth now that she is essentially fully grown. She eventually ended up with severe overcrowding, two ectopic canines and not a millimetre of space for wisdom teeth to do anything other than completely wreck the (very necessary) second round of bracing. She has had her wisdom teeth removed and the canines exposed and bonded with chain to pull them down from the soft palate into alignment. Extractions are horrid, I won't lie. Bracing isn't a picnic either and without the extractions would have been utterly pointless for DD.

If you're not entirely sure, why don't you get an objective second opinion? I've always liked our ortho because (and I know it doesn't sound it with DD but she is the 3rd child of ours the ortho has seen!), she's always been very "wait and see" and cautious, we've never been rushed into decisions and been actively encouraged to seek second and third opinions. DD (or her oral x-Rays) are apparently famous and now used in the teaching school!

Thanks MissHooliesCardigan that is really interesting. The cave people thing makes purfect sense. Lots of chewing the wild raw meat versus smoothies and shakes! I have no idea what wisdom teeth are for or why they are so called!

Bluetrews25 I love it, ... I would definitely let the pilot fly the plane! but this, I am getting second opinion. Re ... they could take £10 of my pocket money. (That was a lot, back then!) a lot now, I will suggest it to my dd!

Re I trained myself to get to sleep by tucking my thumb INTO my fist, and pressing my fist onto my top lip as if I had thumb in mouth. EXCELLENT IDEA. I will definitely try this.

MrsGentlyBenevolent I think her friends know as I think she does it at school!

captainfarrell re OP is it the extraction itself you are worried about? No, I want to make sure if healthy anything is removed it is necessary. I don;t want her to be worried or have pain but I never shy away from necessary treatment for myself or my kids.

Like re Nail the Habit I am looking on line now.

Bless you all. Fabulous help. THANK YOU

So this is my anecdotal evidence

I am the eldest of four with a dentist for a father. We all had orthodontics, and the eldest three wore train track braces (fixed appliances) and had around four teeth extracted each. All four of us have small mouths and as all of my friends were getting the same treatment (with the same local orthodontist) we just did what was done. My youngest sibling was the result of my father's CPD experiment, and instead of the conventional route wore a retainer for years and had her arches expanded, she had no extractions and has a very wide "American smile" now. I much prefer her smile to mine and our other two siblings.

For what it's worth we all have beautiful, straight teeth, and are often complimented on them. We all have had wisdom teeth come through with plenty of room for them, and no problems with teeth moving, impaction, or a need for further extractions.

I recently attended a local dentist/orthodontist (as I live abroad) and he asked if I suffered with headaches. I do, frequently, and I grind my teeth and wear a soft splint at night. He told me that the orthodontic work I had done as a teen was purely cosmetic, and paid little attention to the way my teeth met. He adjusted my bite (which I have done fairly frequently both with my father, and now this new dentist) and my problems are temporarily alleviated until the next time. He has suggested a whole new set of orthodontics to put this issue right, which I am considering. My youngest sister has no such headaches, grinding of teeth etc.

I guess what I am saying is that there are other options, but you are likely to have to research them, pay privately for them, and it is a specialism in its own right. PM me for more details if you like.