Saudi Arabia

[MagicFinger]

Ok, not strictly Aibu, but I've had no answers on chat and I really want to learn about it.

I was reading about Saudi women being allowed to vote for the first time today and googled photos of Saudi.

There appear to be women in the streets without a male escort and some with their heads uncovered.

I was wondering how these laws for women work in practice and whether it is actually as strict as it is portrayed in the West?

Twist - seconded. We talked about that film for DAYS afterwards, it's really thought provoking.

Also Persepolis - completely different but wonderful - and very illuminating on the 1979 Islamic revolution.

Twist and Thirding, Wadjda was directed by my friend Haifaa. Her daughter shared a class with my daughter in Bahrain.We are in Qatar now, going to Dubai next week and then driving from there through Abu Dhabi and Saudi to Bahrain for Christmas. Yes, I do have my Abaya ready!

Yes Persepolis is great too! Boysdon'tcry tell your friend I loved her film and we had a massive debate about whether she starts her period on the roof just before the end so if she can let us know either way that would be great

Furthermore I am not about to give western powers pros for abolishing slavery because your not supposed to keep humans as property, thats like congratulating someone for stopping beating up their girlfriend.

This is historial parochialism. For the vast majority of human history it was considered appropriate to keep humans as property. The change to that perspective is comparably recent and largely enforced by the military, economic and cultural power of the British Empire. A small number of other countries prior to that had ended slavery within their borders - only one society committed (very large) amounts of military expenditure in an attempt to end it globally. The end of slavery was a radical departure from the previous moral consensus.

So when we roll in there and tell we're taking over because in our opinion you can't handle running your own country.

It is the elites running the country that are permitting and perpetuating the inhumane treatment of almost 50% of their populace, in Saudi Arabia's case. Eliminating the elites and establishing political control would permit the education of the populace towards more egalitarian principles - the same way western military forces strove to protect bus loads of female school students in Afghanistan.

What happens if we are not welcomed with open arms? do we use force? and what if the people that want us out are the very people we professed to be helping when we went in the first place what do we do with them.

We already use force - 'soft' power - to persuade dissidents within the regimes we seek to change to enact violence on our behalf. Instead of the manipulative hypocrisy that has led to fiascos in Egypt, Libya, Syria (and some would argue Ukraine) we need to confront the truth; If we want these societies to 'improve', we should be the ones playing the blood price instead of throwing demonstrators, protestors and freedom fighters against the weapons of the regimes we deplore. This hidden colonialism is more morally bankrupt and self deceptive than the honest alternative.

Ultimately, the beneficiaries of humanitarian interventions on such a massive scale would not be the people alive at the beginning of assimilation. It would be the children who are raised in a society that does not mutilate, segregate or execute them for the nature of their birth.

Further more what test/standard should we apply to ensure the level of civilisation they have is acceptable to us before we let them have their own country back?

An end to legalised forms of discrimination and polling that indicates a greater than 50% support within the populace for the reforms we have enacted.

Your ideas are at best unworkable and at the worst down right racist.

In response to both these points: It worked for Germany, '45 to now.

Agree with Persepolis being great, so is the world heritage site for that matter!

Am going to order Wadjda today.

MephistophelesApprentice
For the vast majority it was fine to consider women as property does that make it right? for the vast majority of time it was considered ok to sexually abuse children (this happen a hell of a lot during slavery by the way) does that make only wrong in hindsight?
The elites in these countries are the same elites or governments and large corporations are more than happy to do business with, so what exactly would we be teaching them about civilistion?
I have to ask what if you don't get more than 50% what then do you just force the people to accept your rule and if so how do you do that without becoming the very people you replaced.
You really think that Germany was a success? 1.3 Million POWS captured by the allies missing? The capture and transfer of civilian Germans by Russia after the war East Germany and the Stazi!. It is only since West Germany had restrictions lifted and was able to act autonomously that it has grown as an economic power and for over 40 years that was only for half of the country.
There is also plenty of legalised discrimination in the Europe and the rest of the Western world, Russia in particular do you think we should invade and take over as well or is this a policy that can be only be enacted on brown people?

I read the book 'Not without my daughter' a long while back and it painted an awful picture of Iran. Has anyone else read it?

That aside I'd like to visit one day.

Mephistopheles and awadebumbo I'm certainly learning a lot from your debate, really interesting.

Not read the book Magic but apparently the "Iran" part was filmed in Israel and all the "Iranians" are Israeli. The film was considered so prejudiced against Islam that even the GCC countries (not known for their love of Persia) refused permission to film it in their countries.

It is a bloody terrible film, but the book is based on a true story so might be interesting to read. (DH is also a Persian doctor and my DM was convinced that I would end up smuggling myself through Turkey on a donkey if I married him....thanks Hollywood!)

Just read some of the reviews of Wadjda on Amazon ( excellent ) and just learnt that there are no cinemas in Saudi!

Haha - no cinemas, no music, nothing but malls.....

There is also plenty of legalised discrimination in the Europe and the rest of the Western world, Russia in particular do you think we should invade and take over as well or is this a policy that can be only be enacted on brown people?

If I'm using Germany as an example of successful imperialism, I can hardly be regarding ethnicity as a basis for my beliefs. And yes - I wish this country (or the EU, or NATO) had the hegemonic dominance to force the tolerance of homosexuality onto Russian culture.

For the vast majority it was fine to consider women as property does that make it right? for the vast majority of time it was considered ok to sexually abuse children (this happen a hell of a lot during slavery by the way) does that make only wrong in hindsight?

We regard these things as wrong. The people living in those times did not. If I had a time machine, I would be a great supporter of time-travelling imperialism - after all, the past is another country, with an out dated military and untouched oil reserves (xkcd.com/1191/). I'm supporting the idea about imposing the perspectives of our contemporary society on another; Of course I measure our present moral as being superior to our past values.

I have to ask what if you don't get more than 50% what then do you just force the people to accept your rule and if so how do you do that without becoming the very people you replaced.

There is a qualitative moral difference between forcing people to accept a regime that oppresses women and murders homosexuals to forcing people to accept a regime of gender equality and tolerance. It's no different from rehabilitating criminals - they may well have committed crimes due to a dysfunctional upbringing, but they will still need enforced correction to accept that the actions they have taken are wrong. We're talking whole societies with dysfunctional upbringings - ours might be only a little better (though I'd say, for all it's flaws, it's a lot better than Saudi Arabia) but we have a moral duty to see that the benefits we have discovered are made available to as many as possible.

You really think that Germany was a success? 1.3 Million POWS captured by the allies missing? The capture and transfer of civilian Germans by Russia after the war East Germany and the Stazi!. It is only since West Germany had restrictions lifted and was able to act autonomously that it has grown as an economic power and for over 40 years that was only for half of the country.

Yes, I think Germany IS a success. A war was fought that was bloody and violent - victory is a tragedy only slightly less than a defeat. But the social and political structures that were imposed, literally at gun point, laid the foundations for the modern German success story. But most importantly of all, it was a success because Germany stopped murdering Jews and others on an industrial scale. Even that was the ONLY thing imperialism achieved in Germany's case, it would make the conquest worthwhile.

MephistophelesApprentice
So you want the EU and NATO to do something about Russia (without giving specifics) and yet when it comes to where the brown people live the only option is to go in there and do it for them as they are incapable of doing it themselves?
Furthermore our way of life is so vastly superior to those people that it would be acceptable to force them to conform to what you think is civilised at the business end of a gun?
So for arguments sake a Muslim women wanted to wear a hijab but we in the civilised west did not think it fell in line with our/the values we had forced the local people to accept, what would her punishment be? should we make an example of her so that others would see the futility of their resistance and if yes how far would we take it? public execution maybe? being flogged in the town square.
How about speaking their own language (which was a criminal offence under British rule in Nigeria) should we stop that as well and when we have finished forcing our civilisation on them what do we force next religion maybe.
And finally how do we pay for it? do we use our own taxes to fnd this or do we use the natural resources of the country we are civilising and if so how do we extract it do we ship workers in from our country? or we do we use local people. And what then if they don't want to work for us, maybe we put them in camps and force them to work, or even better have people from a civilised country come over to be in charge of groups of them and they could be given the decision on how to punish/reward as they see fit.

So you want the EU and NATO to do something about Russia (without giving specifics) and yet when it comes to where the brown people live the only option is to go in there and do it for them as they are incapable of doing it themselves?

I think I was pretty clear in the reference to hegemonic pressure; Given the required amount of military power (and sociopolitical will) Russia could be induced to end legal discrimination against homosexuals. If Russian discrimination against gay people led to legalised murder, I would demand military intervention.

Furthermore our way of life is so vastly superior to those people that it would be acceptable to force them to conform to what you think is civilised at the business end of a gun?

If I see a woman being abused by her husband, should I not intervene? Even if it requires me to throw a punch (worthless in my case, I'd have to throw a brick)? If I see someone trying to stab a gay person, I shouldn't act? If I know someone's domestic worker is a slave, I shouldn't liberate them? If a child is being raised in a murderous cult, I shouldn't protect them? It is certainty in the moral superiority of our perspective that demands action in these cases.

In Saudi Arabia, in Daesh's Caliphate, we are literally seeing rape, domestic abuse and murder for sexuality on a national scale. In North Korea, we see the slavery of a nation. In parts of Africa, we see child soldiers. If we believe we have a moral duty to act, even with violence, when we see these things on an individual level, how much greater is the demand when these are on the scale of whole societies?

So for arguments sake a Muslim women wanted to wear a hijab but we in the civilised west did not think it fell in line with our/the values we had forced the local people to accept, what would her punishment be? should we make an example of her so that others would see the futility of their resistance and if yes how far would we take it? public execution maybe? being flogged in the town square.

No, because those would be the very actions we are seeking to end. I am aware of nowhere in the West that has banned the hijab - why would we seek therefore to ban it elsewhere? In the West, punishment for inappropriate clothing is seldom more than a fine, private save for the requirements of oversight . We also have a tradition of balancing the rule of law with a tolerance for a limited degree of civil disobedience; This is one of the values I think could be justifiably imposed.

How about speaking their own language (which was a criminal offence under British rule in Nigeria) should we stop that as well and when we have finished forcing our civilisation on them what do we force next religion maybe.

There are lessons to be learned from the past. One of the great errors of history was the refusal to permit indigenous judges in India to sit in judgement of white immigrants. This is one of the errors created when racism is permitted ideological control. But one of the things I believe that could be justifiably imposed would be the western tolerance for plural religious structures and political secularism.

And finally how do we pay for it? do we use our own taxes to fnd this or do we use the natural resources of the country we are civilising and if so how do we extract it do we ship workers in from our country?

How much should I pay in taxes to support domestic abuse refuges, or childrens services? How much for police? I happily pay plenty, and vote for even higher taxes, because it is morally correct to do so. What price would be too high to save a woman from domestic abuse? To save a nation of women from national abuse? The resources of the country we have conquered will go a long way to offset this, but rehabilitating a whole society would require an enormous commitment of time and personpower to achieve. I simply believe that this is something that would be worthwhile. Criticising other societies and demanding change without being ready to make the necessary sacrifices ourselves is morally contemptible.

or we do we use local people. And what then if they don't want to work for us, maybe we put them in camps and force them to work, or even better have people from a civilised country come over to be in charge of groups of them and they could be given the decision on how to punish/reward as they see fit.

Many of the people prevented from working and earning financial independence under the regimes we'd dissolve would leap at the opportunities offered by assimilation. The ones who protested would be those who were most invested in the social structures that we'd be seeking to eliminate and would render themselves isolated and impotent by their rejection of the new status quo. Those who embraced our values and worked with us would prosper, without any additional intervention necessary save for educational provision and protection from recidivists; That would be the most powerful lesson the conquest would provide.

For those interested in "Not without my daughter", do read "lost without my daughter" too - the perspective of the husband. Both of them are interesting reads, and its important to see both perspectives

Thanks harsh - didn't know that. Will check out both books.

I've started a thread in adult NON fiction about Princess.