Saudi Arabia

[MagicFinger]

Ok, not strictly Aibu, but I've had no answers on chat and I really want to learn about it.

I was reading about Saudi women being allowed to vote for the first time today and googled photos of Saudi.

There appear to be women in the streets without a male escort and some with their heads uncovered.

I was wondering how these laws for women work in practice and whether it is actually as strict as it is portrayed in the West?

One of the interesting things about Iran is the level of dissent amongst the (so-called) liberal elite towards the Islamic dictatorship that came into being after the shah was deposed. Many of them despised the shah, but would they have happily swapped him for Khomeini and his ilk? Probably not! Most older women can remember the days before compulsory hijab and there is now an active women's movement against it. My SIL was imprisoned briefly for poor hijab after a run-in with the morality police - apparently my DFIL could hear her yelling at the guards from 2 blocks away (and they let her go when he brought her an "appropriate" headscarf).

As a consequence there is an ongoing exodus of Iranians across the world who are educated and who espouse Western values and would probably agree that European/Western civilisation, whilst imperfect, is a damn sight benefit than anything on offer anywhere else.

I think it's that strata of educated dissenters that is missing from Saudi (and indeed from many other Arab countries). In the UK we are conditioned to believe that Iran is a terrible place full of anti-semites where women are treated appallingly whereas Saudi is our friend. It's nuts - neither of those things are true. Yes, Iranian women are oppressed, but there are also many things you don't hear about - like the 60,000-odd Jews who call Tehran their home, have freedom of religion and (I believe) their own MP.

Plus the food is better in Iran!

Thanks Farticus that's really interesting, I'd like to go. I had a few Iranian friends when I was younger and did love the food they cooked! Have you been?

It was interesting to hear the Russian mum saying she wishes women in her culture were as strong as Iranian women.

When I first visited Saudi in 1988, Riyadh, you didn't have to wear an abaya. It became much more strict after the Gulf War.

I ended up living there for almost 8 years in the mid-90s try to mid 2000's with breaks in between and I really enjoyed it. Mind you, we were secluded on luxurious compounds. My shopping trips to town were great for exploring but we were always bothered by the religious police which was annoying. I am quite confident, though, so I would just brush them off and tell them not to speak to me. The funniest thing to me about the local shops was the prevalence of what we expats used to call the naughty knickers shops. They sell some seriously raunchy lingerie.

But I will say this. I have been camping on the Red Sea on the Saudi side many times. I have both been in a swimsuit with our camping party and have driven off road in our 4 wheel drives, all under the eyes of the Saudi police and they just let us get on with it. We had bbqs, drank (homemade) alcohol and spent days camping and diving and had a great time. I remember camping on NYE and the police coming by to greet us and wish us Happy New Year. The police, I hasten to add, did not bother us but stayed close by to keep an eye on our safety.

Harking back to when I first visited in 1988, there was no tv and no internet. They now have the equivalent - widely - of Sky TV and they have all the same access that we do to the internet (albeit using VPNs to get by such horrid things like looking up Christmas recipes). Society there will change. It will just take time.

Have faith in Saudi and it's ability to progress. it is very important to the world's wellbeing that it continues to be stable. If Saudi were to descend into a Syrian nightmare, then it would be disastrous for all of us.

Small steps.

Friends who went around the world by Land Rover said that Iran - particularly away from big cities - was fab. Good food, friendly people, no hassle, even though they were unmarried and she is ginger.
They did not risk going into the Gulf states.

Saudi are the established arm of ISIS. It really is that simple.

I've been to Iran, I thought it was fab, food was shit if you ask me though.

Sorry Mephistopheles but that is bullshit.
We in UK talk about values and civilisation and yet happily do business with Saudi some on this very thread are happy to work and the British government even sell them the weapons to oppress their own people and the Yemenis, we turn a blind eye to the treatment of women and non Muslims in the country as long as they buy weapons from us and we can buy oil from them. And we are to be held up as an example of civilisation really?
I also think it's hugely naive to think us taking the place over will improve the lot of the because frankly it hasn't ever before. Let's then get to what history had taught about Imperialism; let's start with the 10 million Africans killed by King Leopold in the 1920's, the crushing of the Maui Maui rebellion in Kenya, Churchill forcing millions of Indians to starve to death in the 40's, the removal of the people of Diego Garcia so America could have somewhere to test weapons. There is no good side to imperialism and for you to think for even a second that it would be a viable answer knowing the legacy it has already left makes me feel you're in no position to dictate what and what is not civilised.

Iran is definitely the lesser of two evils compared to Saudi Arabia. Qatar and UAE are not much better either.

Ego from that graphic it would seem that the UK talks about civilisation out one side of out mouths whilst talking weapons sales out of the other.

I had no idea we manufacture so many weapons here! What reason do they give for supplying the middle eastern countries?

Iran is currently backing the Assad regime (which is killing more people then ISIS) and filling the country with brutal militias. Not sure how that makes them any better than Saudi. Don't give me any crap about Assad being the "lesser of two evils" either, I doubt you'd be saying that if it were your loved ones he was slaughtering.

As for why the Saudi's don't revolt, I think a good look at Syria has put them off that. Half the people on this thread who are so appalled by Saudi, are probably the same sort of people who consider Syrian refugees economic migrants and don't want them in the UK.

Regarding hospitals, at the hospital I had the misfortune to go to, female DRs for females, female waiting rooms. But the female DRs have to get male DRs approval for most things. If he has to examine you, you have to put the abayer back on. If he disagrees with the female DRs diagnosis, his is right.

Going for emergency surgery, you have to wear 2 gowns and be covered by a sheet as they wheel you down to surgery incase a man should see you, be inflamed by your beauty and he's unable to stop himself touching/raping you.

Even on a female ward, if a man decides to visit and he can at anytime because he can, you have to wear an abayer. So if you have to 'peramulate' after your surgery, yup you have to wear an Abayer.

I was examined several times, not by touch, but by just looking at me from 2 feet away. When my drain and stitches needed removing, they had to lift the abayer, they DR could get away fast enough. He discharged me and sent me home.

A lot of pain meds are banned in Saudi. Even on the day of my surgery after I came around, I was only allowed panadol as a lot of meds the West have are banned. After I did the Western Expat rant, I found out I could have pethidine if I wanted! You bet I wanted. But it didn't help, so I suspect it wasn't pethidine. Ruptured appendix minus pain relief post op isn't a fun time. When I was discharged the other expats came forward with their stashes and I had some co codamol which was bliss.
Less then 24 hrs later I was back in hospital. I had a terrible infection in my wound. Over 1 pint of gunk was released when a different DR at a different hospital saw the state of my wound.

Forgot to add, it would've been avoided if the DR had examined me properly.

Also, tampons. Very very occasionally you'll find them in the supermarket or pharmacy. I couldn't find any so went to the pharmacist to ask where they were, when they'd be getting more etc. He told me they didn't have them - tampons - that pads are much better! But I could buy viagra, they had a deal on 3 for 2.
Certainly a mans world.

Awadebumbo

The conquest of India ended Sati. The Anglo-Ashanti wars ended slavery on the Gold Coast. A UN mandate in Saudi Arabia could potentially end some pretty foul abuse of women (and likely slash funding for the even more wildly misogynistic Daesh).

It's the refusal to accept overt imperialism that creates the existence of weapons markets, manipulating the military forces within those areas we wish to pacify through the controlling of their arms supply. While no nation is perfect, or military is one of the most disciplined and humane peacekeeping forces in the world. Would it not be better, instead of giving these other regimes weapons in the vague hope they'll enforce a brutal peace, the weapons were in the hands of a military with strong oversight and under our direct control?

You must be undoubted failures of past empires and argue that the whole edifice is unsuccessful, but our world is already woven with powerful hegemonic forces that create the control mechanisms of Empire without any responsibility to better the lives who live within them. We have human rights NGOs trying to bring pressure on local governments to alter their laws in ways we find acceptable, we broadcast on social media our distaste and contempt for the intolerance of these other societies, we are already trying to force other cultures to share our belief in equality of gender and sexuality. This is Imperialism. If you believe that any of the above is important and necessary, you are an imperialist. If you do not accept that the final price of your beliefs is blood and conquest, you create situations like Libya and Syria where our support for a regime change (making it closer to our own societies) without accepting responsibility for that change has produced misery and tyranny far greater than any western occupation. Even Iraq and Afghanistan weren't as violent as those present states where we refuse our obligations.

Know it's a tangent within the thread but about the western airlines allowing their female staff to be discriminated against in Saudi hotels.

Duck the hotels have to follow the Saudi laws regarding men/women associating in public. Many of the hotels are themselves Western chains but whereas women would obviously be allowed in the gym at the Hyatt in LA (for example) they won't in Jeddah, because that would be against the law in Saudi. Four Seasons has a floor catering for business women alone - only women get the access key for the floor, meaning no unwelcome intruders. It doesn't mean that female guests can swim or use the gym, sadly. Should we boycott all of them? (Genuine question - I struggle with this...)

The only way I can process the ridiculousness of it all is just to keep repeating "it's 1454 there" to myself.

To the PP - I will be visiting Iran in 2016 for the first time. I am looking forward to seeing friends and family (and visiting the cultural sites) but of course as a woman and a westerner I am expecting it to be difficult (and struggling with the idea that I will need DH's permission to leave again).

And that verdict in the trial of the Saudi millionaire cleared of rape is giving me the rage as well...

Mephistopheles Apprentice
You can talk about perceived good and the betterment of the indigenous people. But the reality is imperialism has never been about it has always been about expansion and material gain with a little bit of oppression of the locals (Rhodesia anyone?) that so lets dealt with reality.
So when we roll in there and tell we're taking over because in our opinion you can't handle running your own country. What happens if we are not welcomed with open arms? do we use force? and what if the people that want us out are the very people we professed to be helping when we went in the first place what do we do with them.
Further more what test/standard should we apply to ensure the level of civilisation they have is acceptable to us before we let them have their own country back? would the country as a whole have to sit an exam.
Your ideas are at best unworkable and at the worst down right racist.
Furthermore I am not about to give western powers pros for abolishing slavery because your not supposed to keep humans as property, thats like congratulating someone for stopping beating up their girlfriend.

I've been to both Saudi Arabia (in the 80s) and Iran (90s) and Iran was by far the better place to be a woman. It was very relaxed, no hassle, lots of young girls meeting up on the streets.

When we were there, students would come up to us in the street to talk to us about life in the West and practice their English. Felt completely safe walking around Tehran at night. I would like go back to see more of the country.

Saudi Arabia - will never go back (even though i could visit family working there).

I've finished Princess. Thank you for that.

If you're interested in Iran try and watch some of Asghar Farhadi's films. A Separation is a masterpiece: