Saudi Arabia

[MagicFinger]

Ok, not strictly Aibu, but I've had no answers on chat and I really want to learn about it.

I was reading about Saudi women being allowed to vote for the first time today and googled photos of Saudi.

There appear to be women in the streets without a male escort and some with their heads uncovered.

I was wondering how these laws for women work in practice and whether it is actually as strict as it is portrayed in the West?

I've never been to Saudi but I do agree with a PP who recommends the book princess, I read this book a few years ago, truly shocking the way that women are treated.

Wasn't it recently in the news about one of the princes and his antics against women staff?

The only place in the east I would be interested in visiting is Dubai and even then I'm not sure!

Dubai is also loathsome - it's all about competitive consumerism, with serious human rights abuses going on in front of people's very noses: it's just because expats can have a "cool" life there, people find it easier to ignore.

And if you think Saudi's vile now (and it is) - what will come after the monarchy falls is likely to be even worse, sadly.

Lovely men there have the habit of thinking a woman is a 'slut' if she's by herself and is looking for man, that's why she travels alone

Yes that is what I have heard from my colleagues (and frankly it's why I am going ladies only at the Four Seasons!) The thinking is basically that if you are a kaffir travelling alone you are basically available will be perfectly happy to have sex with any old bloke coming into your room at 2am.... (I say that as a Muslim btw).

My job involves lots of ME travel and part of that is being "accepting" of things on a cultural level that would make me hurl plates around and snarl if they happened in the UK. I don't have any solutions but I don't think anyone benefits if we just refuse to acknowledge it or go there. Plenty of women in Saudi are campaigning for change and their voices should be heard.

I strongly urge anyone who hasn't already seen it to watch Wadjda - it's a wonderful film.

Dubai 20 years ago is where Saudi is now.

Yes, local women are baring their face in public. I was the first time, but its happening more and more. In family only areas. Muttawa don't seem prevalent here, which is maybe why it is starting to happen? No hijab is American, or British, or Irish...

Were her as the oil industry laid DH off. I was close to breakdown as my boss was a bastard, and i couldnt quit while DH didnt have a job. He applied for many jobs, and didn't get second interviews. Then KSA rang him up. So, yes. We are doing it for our kids. They have a parent working.

Old fingers crossed your visa is refused then?

Why does the West put up with Saudi? It is basically a theocratic apartheid state that got lucky by finding oil. Once the oil runs out they will be shown for what they are (and hopefully it will happen very soon)!

Unfortunately Desert it has been approved already which is why I have to go next month. 5th time "lucky" eh?

The first 3 refusals were (apparently) because I was unmarried. The fourth refusal was because my married surname is recongisably Shi'ite. (Can't bloody win! ) Now it appears strings have been pulled and I have a multi-entry business visa. Whoop-de-doo.

I don't judge anyone for working in the ME. I agree that KSA is Dubai 20 years ago and whilst there is a long way to go life is certainly better for women in UAE. The pace of change for (in particular) migrant/construction workers in UAE has been driven by foreigners and expats to quite a significant extent. It will be the same in KSA (although I expect progress to be slower, because they are not reliant on or wishing to encourage tourist revenue (excluding Hajj, of course).)

That said, I do not relish the idea of a week in Riyadh and Jeddah.

Desert it's good that you're doing it for your kids, my dad did the same years ago and he had no option, there were no jobs at the time in his industry in the country we lived it
Anyway I'm sure your kids are well protected there and have all sorts of privileges... There are some great benefits there for US or Europeans working there, but let's face it life is unbearably hard for local women or anyone doing hard labour.
Other than that the country represents the ultimate hypocrisy....the same seniors ordering amputation and lashes if you're caught with alcohol, have the biggest breweries in their houses selling $500 a bottle ! Anyway I can go on and go but what's the point ..whole thing stinks !

I've ordered Princess.

What an interesting and disturbing thread.

Old frat, please do report back.

Why can't tourists go there for a holiday? Just curious. If you are reading Princess would love to know what you thought of it. Won't give any spoilers but it made me both sad and angry. Hate the way women are treated over there. Don't understand it and cannot find any viable excuse for it.

Why can't tourists go there for a holiday? Just curious
Because there is nothing there for tourists. Think of the things you do on holiday. They are all either unavailable or forbidden.

What about shopping, restaurants, beaches, historical sights? As I said I'm v ignorant about the country. But for tourists to be banned? That's pretty ( don't know what the right word is), strong.

There's a great film touching on the Wests relationship with SA on iPlayer, called Bitter Lake. It will answer a lot of the questions upthread.

This is also an interesting piece mobile.nytimes.com/2015/11/21/opinion/saudi-arabia-an-isis-that-has-made-it.html

It always amazes me that KSA are allowed to compete in the Olympics/World Cup etc. South Africa was barred because of the apartheid system, why not KSA? Is it because it's only women being discriminated against?

I lived in Kuwait in the late 90s as a teenager. My stepdad had frequent travel to Saudi but would not take us there. I know Kuwait isn't as bad as Saudi but other than most of the Arab boys in my British school who were pretty liberal compared to locals who went to Arabic schools, the number of girls in their teens who got raped while they were there was unreal.
Luckily I was never raped but made the mistake of dancing with a Kuwaiti lad at the school prom. Apparently this meant I wanted to marry him and he wouldn't leave me alone. He tracked me down when we moved back to the UK and wouldn't leave me alone.
I also made the mistake of wearing cream coloured Levi's out shopping. A fundamentalist came up to my stepdad and told him to take me home immediately and that I was a disgusting whore (I was 13).
My school however was exceptional and didn't tolerate any inequality between girls and boys and had a female British headteacher. I was in a class of 8 and wouldn't have got the amazing education I got if we'd stayed here.

The thing that really gets me about these countries is that whilst they are supposedly ' moral' the amount of sexual violence towards women, visiting prostitutes in other countries, child sexual abuse is shockingly high. It's so bloody hypocritical!

Yes totally Destinysdsughter. Our next posting was Thailand and the number of Arabs you would see there with young girls or even worse was shocking.

Destined daughter- after reading princess I felt so sad for any woman born into the Islamic faith,
Id always believed that the well off families, like the royalty would have women treated slightly differently, but it seems that they were treated awfully.
Reading of honour killings, and the things that the Muslim men get up to in the poorer areas (you'll know what I mean if you've finished the book) and the general inequality made me so sad.
I still at times- usually when I visit my hometown (Luton) see Muslim women and young girls and feel sad that their lives will in areas be just as bad, despite living in this country.
I have a list of books on my bookshelf that will never ever be moved, this is one of the few that I will always keep.
So sad, and I reccommend anyone to read this book.
I also find that it's stuck with me that the law seems to discount women as witnesses because of a few reasons I can't quite remember, I think I might read it again.

I was going to go with work. I didn't have to, in the end, thankfully, but I had all the briefings.

I was warned that, whilst they encouraged me to walk around alone and not cover up as I would at home, I would be repeatedly solicited. I was also told that people would offer to buy my hair because it's blonde.

I was told that I'd probably be undermined for having my job as a female and that I may need a male "spokesperson" to speak my thoughts, as well as a driver.

I'm very glad I didn't have to go.

Thirding Wadjda, it's a wonderful film. You could also read Girls of Riyadh by Rajaa Alsanea, translated by Marylin Booth, for a glimpse of how young rich Saudi women live.

It always amazes me that KSA are allowed to compete in the Olympics/World Cup etc. South Africa was barred because of the apartheid system, why not KSA? Is it because it's only women being discriminated against?

I think the short answer is "yes" unfortunately. I have read that KSA was now allowing women to compete at the Olympics provided they kept their hijab on and were accompanied by a male chaperone. It's small beer, but I suppose better than the alternative (i.e. not being able to compete at all!)

And Destiny totally agree with you about sexual exploitation. In the UAE there are "gentlemen's spas" on almost every corner outside the tourist areas, staffed by young Phillippinas. I am guessing that men don't go there for facials and waxing and also that the women are granted visas by the (Islamic) government to work in - basically - the sex industry. Hypocrisy at every turn. Equally, here in UAE, the bars are often full of wealthy Saudi males drinking like twats despite extolling the virtues of a dry state run on Sharia principles for everyone who can't afford a plane ticket.

I will report back next month - live Saudi thread anyone?

I don't know if I'd risk a live Saudi thread if I were you, tell us about it when you're safety back home.

We should remember is this is the spiritual home of Islam. It is the place from where Islam across the world.

When pilgrims visit it on their Hajj, (which every muslim must do at least once in their lives), they are being shown the "true" way for a muslim to live. It is a matter of speculation as to whether pilgrims will go to the effort of making a pilgrimage then ignoring everything they are being shown, or will come home to the UK and elsewhere filled with religious fervour to live more like a proper muslim.

the corruption, the ill treatment of women and girls, the excessive wealth, the cruel treatment of migrant workers, the division in society of rich and poor this is Saudi society built on money and power of the privileged

Saudi maybe the spiritual home of Islam but it makes a mockery of the honour it has of Mecca being within the country

What do British Muslims think of this?

Good question Siwi. DH is Shia so not much love lost between them and the (largely Sunni) Saudi's. We are probably a bad example though because we keep a few traditions to keep the inlaws happy but are broadly atheist

I think there is an element of "it's their country so they can do what they like" amongst many fellow Muslims to whom I have spoken. My frustration with that approach is that the respect and tolerance only goes one way. Try opening a church/temple/synagogue or going out in your shorts in Riyadh...